Where does power come from?

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Postby af2 » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:35 pm

Just thinking, but isn't that is the reason N2O is the most efficient in combustion to the point you have to add fuel to keep parts from melting?
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Postby automotive breath » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:42 pm

I'm of the opinion that the key to improvements in thermal efficiency lies in the reduction of crankshaft degrees required to burn the entire mixture. If it currently takes 90 degrees crankshaft degrees to achieve 100% air/fuel charge burned, the internal engine parts see combustion temperatures for the entire time. If you are able to reduce the burn time, engine temperature will go down and thermal efficiency will go up. Less heat wasted, more doing work.

This chart may help explain:

Also notice the chart shows overall burn at 90% of the charge, 10% wasted. Room for improvements in combustion efficiency.

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Postby Bronze66 » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:53 pm

What about something like this:

http://somender-singh.com/component/opt ... /Itemid,1/

http://somender-singh.com/content/view/68/49/

or here it is in practice

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/singhs- ... 02958.html

The3rd topic is a bit old and I know Randy (automotivebreath) has done alot more with it. He has some of the vehicles on Sommenders site. Read what Sommender says about the nitrogen and what happens to it. I grooved my heads just for the heck of it after doing about 2 weeks of solid research on the topic. I changed several things at the time. I can't really know all or any help that the grooves do. But I can tell you with the cam I have it will idle down to 600 rpms smoothly. It would never do that before. I currently have it set at 700-750rpms.

There are many sites and guys that have done this. Most are turbo 4cyl and turbo Buicks. quote from link: "The best information got wiped out when this site crashed: turbobricks" They still have some info on the site about grooving.

Best to search on "Sommender Singh" or "groove heads".

I'd like to do more real world testing with this concept and A/B testing. But my time is very limited and my resorces are getting smaller. May be someday in the future.

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Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:44 pm

If an experiment were done in a closed environment (no atmosphere)
and pure oxygen was used in place of the atmosphere, what would be
the result in power output?


Think Oxy Acetelene torch, severe uncontrolled detonation, melted metal.

The results of increased oxygen are well known, this is how No2 and nitro add power.
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Postby ST7317 » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:59 pm

As has been mentioned, the power comes from the heat. The more oxygen (atmosphere) you can combine with the fuel (gasoline), the more heat will be created and hence the more pressure on the piston. The Otto cycle, heat transfer to the cylinder wall, stoichiometric combustion, all play a role and deserve scrutiny when it comes to efficiency. But the greater the temperature change the more power produced per cycle.

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Where does power comes from?

Postby Troy Patterson » Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:48 pm

The information on the Somender - Singh site is right on the money - nitrogen is a key element.

It's not enough to simply start a fire and rapidly oxidize oxygen / fuel in a nitrogen environment to get the most from it. Huge advances have been made in combustion efficiency / power potential - production through chamber design, which brings us back around to not only dispersing the air / fuel mixture more uniformly throughout the combustion chamber space, but also aides flame propagation throughout the combustion space.

All of this has to do with how uniformly - on a molecular level - we can heat and expand those nitrogen molecules.

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Re: Where does power comes from?

Postby automotive breath » Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:27 pm

Troy Patterson wrote:....All of this has to do with how uniformly - on a molecular level - we can heat and expand those nitrogen molecules.

Troy Patterson

Absolutely right, poor air/fuel/residual gas mixing leads to poor combustion. and uneven heating of the nitrogen.

Troy, what can I do to my 4150 Holley to better atomize the fuel. Can advantages be found with improved metering blocks? The more uniform the fuel air mixture, the faster more controlled the burn. All this leads to improved efficiency.

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Where does power come from?

Postby Troy Patterson » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:07 pm

I wasn't trying to make this about selling carbs.

I will point out, that the better we atomize the fuel, and the more accurately the fuel mixer can proportionately respond to the metering signal - delivering fuel accordingly, and the better fuel distribution is the more complete combustion will be - the more energy we can realize from the heating and expansion of the nitrogen molecules.

It all goes closely hand in hand.

Conventionally built carbs can be exceeded in each of these areas.

I can see that there is as yet tremendous undeveloped potential improving the process of heating the nitrogen molecules to make more power and increase efficiency.

I've come to this conclusion not abstractly, but from my own R & D, not by predetermined rules and existing notions, but by simply looking at what works, and then developing theories as why. When theories begin to accurately predict outcomes, now you're going somewhere.

My carbs, excessively large, over atomizing and expensive, are designed for improving efficiency in heating those nitrogen molecules. But that's just the beginning.

Automotive breath, a larger carb reduces velocity therethrough allowing more of the fuel droplets to remain in suspension and provide greater fuel distribution, cool the induction with thermal barrier / dispersant coatings - air gaps / insulators, and yes, improved metering / fuel curves.

Conventionally built carbs can be exceeded in each of these areas.

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Where does power come from?

Postby Troy Patterson » Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:10 pm

I believe, we need to look more specifically and exactly at what it is an internal combustion engine is and how it works. I don't claim to be an expert here and I'm sure I've got a lot more to learn, but if we apply more attention to this aspect, who knows where it will take us?

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Re: Where does power come from?

Postby automotive breath » Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:43 pm

Troy Patterson wrote:...I will point out, that the better we atomize the fuel, and the more accurately the fuel mixer can proportionately respond to the metering signal - delivering fuel accordingly, and the better fuel distribution is the more complete combustion will be - the more energy we can realize from the heating and expansion of the nitrogen molecules.

It all goes closely hand in hand....

Troy Patterson

It's not only about fuel atomization, although that can be big part. Check out this CFD showing flow vectors and equivalence ratios to highlight in cylinder mixing of the fresh charge with residual gas.

"...this means that generally in the cylinder there will be fuel richer regions with lower temperature and leaner regions with higher temperature...."

"...the effect of mixing in the cylinder is very important since it controls the local temperature and composition in the cylinder. There is a correlation between local equivalence ratio and residual gas fraction with temperature. The assumption of homogeneous composition (in the cylinder) could be quite inaccurate even under premixed conditions in the intake port..."

http://me.engin.umich.edu/autolab/Publications/Adobe/P2002_05.PDF

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Where does power come from?

Postby Troy Patterson » Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:53 am

Absolutely Automotive Breath, that's excellent information.

I don't want to sound as though the carb can or will fix anything - I was addressing the question posed in your prior post.

However, I would argue that any given percentage of fuel that you can prevent from turning liquid in route to the combustion chamber will net a greater percentage increase in combustion efficiency from the perspective of more effectively heating the nitrogen.

Any of you heard of a guy named John Flinchbough(sp?)? He had told me he was around or worked with some Chrysler drag race teams from the late 60's on.

He was working on a piston texture treatment that accelerated the combustion process sufficiently to reduce total advance by about 10 degrees. He had applied for a patent for it.

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Last edited by Troy Patterson on Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby MadBill » Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:59 am

For a carburated or port fuel injected (as opposed to direct injection) engine, there is a big difference between the sometimes interchangeably used terms 'atomization' and 'vaporization'. The former means very small droplets of liquid, while the latter means turned to vapor.
Small droplets will vaporize readily in the cylinder (a prerequisite to combustion), but vapor content in the inlet system displaces air, reducing potential power (although the cooling effect of vaporization reduces the effect). Gaseous fueled engines (Propane, CNG) produce 6-15% less power than typical gasoline ones for this reason.
There's a fine line between the two states and as we know, both liquid and vapor are present in the intake system. The percentages vary with location, inlet air and surface temperatures, manifold vacuum, fuel distillation curve, etc.
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Postby Procision-Auto » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:45 pm

2dumb2kwit wrote:excuse me for being dumb, but isn't that just an igniter away from being a tater gun?

That would be one heck of a 'tater gun. 8)

My reason for posting the pure 02 comment was to get a response for the difference in combustion properties when compared to atmosphere.

I'm not really understanding the role of Nitrogen in the combustion process as it would be inert. Aside from cooling/quenching, I can't think of any other benefit.

Having said that, by removing the cooling effect (Nitrogen), and allowing the mixture to contain more oxygen, the potential to generate more heat and react with more fuel elements would increase the force, correct?

Please enlighten me about the need for Nitorgen in this discussion if considered to be an oxidizer. Thanks!

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Postby Windsor377 » Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:59 pm

It acts as a "buffer" or "regulator" in the combustion process to promote a controled burn vs rapid total ignition and the catastrophic results that would have on a piston engine.

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Where does power come from?

Postby Troy Patterson » Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:06 pm

I'm not thinking of nitrogen (or some other gas [non oxidizing] present) as an oxidizing agent so it is inert, but it's molecules are become excited by the heat generated by combustion. The excitement of these atoms cause expansion increasing pressure (like boiling water in steam engines) as a result of their radically increased activity - reacting with one another.

I suspect nitrogen has unique properties which conveniently happen to coincide with our desires and methods of generating power.

If we accept that an internal combustion engine is not an internal combustion engine, but a nitrogen heater / expander, we'll look at it in a new way - and stop enriching those robber barons of the oil / energy industries.

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