Engine Masters Challenge teardown question

[Guest]

For the past two years the Engine Masters Challenge has been won by Kaase who has built two engines that are, by his own admission, very similar. The Jan 22nd broadcast of Lucas Oil On the Edge shows contestants competing in the final round and includes interviews. During his interview Mr. Kaase commented that he wondered why no other competitor copied his winning design from 2003. The score is a combination of average torque plus average horsepower from 2500-6500 RPM. It does seem to be a good measure of overall engine strength. 92-octane fuel also forces the builders to make power with pump gas.

If you look at the 2003 teardown (http://tinyurl.com/57bmo ) you’ll see that the combustion chambers in Kaase’s cylinder heads are extremely small (27cc), and the pistons have a combustion chamber cut into them that mirrors the outline of the cylinder head’s chamber.

Can anyone explain exactly how this is an improvement over keeping the combustion chamber in the head and running the usual flat top w/valve reliefs? Is the valve unshrouding with this arrangement so great as to offset the drawbacks of having to run the top ring so far down and having a .600 piston deck thickness?

[Darin Morgan]

Can anyone explain exactly how this is an improvement over keeping the combustion chamber in the head and running the usual flat top w/valve reliefs? Is the valve unshrouding with this arrangement so great as to offset the drawbacks of having to run the top ring so far down and having a .600 piston deck thickness?

These are purely my opinions and I will have to call John and see if I am right but here goes.

Running the ring that far down in an engine that will most definitely be on the edge or past trace detonation, is not a detriment in my book.
Why did he put the reverse dome in the piston? Well, the pressure recovery dynamics of the chamber design are quite nice. You would not want to lay back the chamber wall any more than that. He has maximized his quench/squish area thereby minimizing his chances of end gas and lean area detonation. Then he put the rest of the volume in the reverse dome. Now you have the best of both worlds. Excellent pressure recovery, excellent squish quench area, PLUS he harnessed every bit of air fuel mixture in a nice homogenous ball right over the plug and maximized his burn rate as well. If he detonates it a little, so what, the ring is out of the heat and wont be effected by the shock waves as much. He can put it right on the ragged edge. That engine is a work of art. You look in the crank case and you see the attention to detail as far as windage is concerned. He turned the counter weights down and heavy metal balanced the crank! Look at the epoxy in the crank case. They put a lot of work and energy into that project. He is and always has been a very very sharp guy who many times does not get the credit he disserves.

[ChrisU]

I didn't see you guys mention his head gaskets in the equation. They were 1/2" thick.

[ChrisU]

Ah okay you're talking 2003.

[maxracesoftware]

Engine Masters Challenge

anyone know the exact Links to Year 2003,
especially 2004
Engine Masters Challenge 's

1- Rules

2- Dyno numbers and dyno results

most of the Links i've come across
don't provide or state the "Contest Rules"
neither the actual Dyno Numbers for 2004 results

[SBC]

http://popularhotrodding.com/enginemast ... enge/2004/

I think that's the one

Well rules maybe but only dyno points?

[Guest]

thanks SBC

i found out my Firewall settings were blocking
some of Links and Pics from appearing on that site

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/engine ... dynopulls/

but still no Dyno Test results ???

[putztastics]

I don't think there are dyno pull results on the PRH site except for 2002.

The 2003 teardown reports are interesting though especially Kaase's.

John Kaase 2003

"W" ENTERPRISES 2003

[url=http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/challenge/2003/0405phr_emc3/]PERFORMANCE RESEARCH STEVE DULCICH AND ROSS MARTINDALE 2003
[/url]

I read about Kaase's thick head gasket and never figured out exactly what the reason was for it let alone if he actually ran one that thick. I was wondering if he was running coolant in the gasket. The only other thing that made sense was changing to progressively thinner head gaskets on the dyno until there was piston to head contact, but the head gaskets wouldn't have to be super thick for that.

[putztastics]

The Thick Gaskets
One of the tricky things Kaase did this time, was to use thick gaskets...I mean really thick .375" or so. Jon asked the rules committee, "is there a limitation on gasket thickness?" Michael Simpson wrote back, "no, any thickness is allowed." I'm not sure I understand all the benefits of this yet, but it does allow you to shrink your combustion chamber to a minimum.

When I first read the 2002 teardowns, I thought Kaase did this to reduce detonation. It does, but there is more to it than that. Holdener stayed for the teardowns, and pointed out to me...this is why Kaase's heads have such amazing mid-lift numbers. You don't gain peak flow, but by unshrouding the valves, you begin to gain excellent mid-lift numbers. Here is an example of the Kaase's 27cc big block chamber. I think the pics from this year may have the valves even out farther.

[putztastics]

The custom roller cam built by Comp Cams uses oversize 55mm roller-style cam bearings as well as oversize lobes with larger base circles.

What's the reason for the large base circle cams Kaase ran in 2003 and 2004?

[putztastics]

Kaase did run thick head "gaskets";

Jon Kaase is no stranger to the world of ultra high performance engine building and the incredibly slick Ford 408 Cleveland he brought this year was by far the most exotic mill in attendance. With its Australian CH1 Cleveland heads, AMC six-cylinder main bearings and .5-inch thick copper head spacers, it was number one qualifier with peak readings of 698.2 hp, 619.6 lb.-ft, average power readings of 485.9 hp and 557.3 lb.-ft. and a staggering 1,043.2 points.

The teardown article on that engine should be worth reading.

[putztastics]

Using thick head gaskets might have something to do with the intake manifold choices...

[Trev]

I noticed he welded tongues in the pluemenum, what advantage does this give

[dbusch]

If Jon used a 9.2 Cleveland block and a huge stroke (4.1-4.2) he would need more deck ht. to fit the necessary rod length and compression ht. he needed to run the huge dish piston and rings way down on the piston. In looking at this engine, you would think noone would ever build a street/strip pump gas motor with a big bore-short stroke-long rod ratio ever again. The small bore big stroke short rod ratio engine type works great with pump gas since it doesnt detonate as easy. The canted valve head is nice too, since it will still flow decent with big valves and a small bore size. as it opens the valves into the center of the cyl.

On the 55mm camshaft, that allows more aggressive valve timing while keeping good stability, like much short(er) duration with much high(er) lift than a std. bearing cam would allow. The engine needs a certain amount of valve curtain area, and getting it with lift instead of duration will make more avg. torque.

[Ken_Parkman]

Here is mine from my (lone) AMC at the Challenge. I'm no Kasse and can't hope to compete with some of those guy's, but regardless I was proud of the engine. I dunno how to copy the data from the DTS output so here are the 500 rpm points from 1 pull.

2500 451.8 215.0
3000 472.2 269.7
3500 464.8 309.7
4000 516.8 393.6
4500 559.2 479.2
5000 553.5 526.9
5500 549.4 575.4
6000 527.5 602.6
6500 491.9 608.7

Average 514.6 446.4

The peak torque was 563.5 @ 4700 and peak power was 613.3 @ 6300. The average of the 3 competition pulls was 959.7, and my finish was 15'th overall.

Another additional thought on the gasket thing is it will position the heads a little further out, add intake spacers and that gives an extra .500 of intake runner length, a little more torque at lower rpm. Same idea for the extended divider walls.

It will be truly fascinating to read about Kaase's buildup - can't wait!