700+hp N.A. Ford engine ideas, budget.

[DavidHarsay]

Alright, here's one of those types of questions that I personally dislike, many of you I'm sure as well... it's one of those what kind of engines would you build. Well, why am I asking then?

Friend asked me to assemble from scratch, a 700hp+ street rod engine, normally aspirated, to be installed in a factory 5 cobra replica. One of those mid-life crisis deals, and he just talked himself out of an 08 Viper to do this... someone I've done work for in the past.

His budget is $15-30K including my time. I need to include a lot of chrome. Wants EFI, and that's part of the package, whether EEC based or stand alone. He's a bit into the "wow factor" I guess you can call it, said he wanted something special.

Well, I need to let him know exactly what I would do for how much in about 30 days.

If I can't come up with a good idea... I can perhaps talk him into a Kenny Belled Shelby motor though, they're pretty stout...

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/sh ... ost4314062

Dress it up with billet and chrome, some fancy wire loom guards.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Dave

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Ok Dave,
I know that you are already expecting this but your question asked is about a Normal Aspirated Engine and the example you are showing in the link is all Forced Inducted Engines.

If that is what your customer is using for his idea of how much horsepoer he is expecting, he better start comparing apples to apples.

My suggestion is to go as big as the budget will allow. Don't go overboard with big flowing large runner heads. I do like the EFI and I know that you do too. That will help tame the idle charactoristics down with a fairly healthy cam. I do feel that is a little optimistic for a street engine though. I guess that depends on what his ideas are of street.

My suggestion is to talk him into going with a turbo setup. That would easily allow your goals and then a bunch more and would still be very drivable and have good street manners. Of course that is not N/A either.

Ed

[C Stevens]

Any time frame for delivery? Reason I ask is there is a strong rumor that Eliminator will have a 9.5 deck BBF block out toward the middle of the year. Think 500cid easy, able to close COBRA hood. Perhaps a Hogan EFI manifold on Kaase's P-51 heads. Hmmmm.

[PackardV8]

Greetings, ArizonaSpeed,

IMHO, You can make 700hp with a BBF for $30k, no worries. It just won't be truly street-driveable in a Cobra replica. Difficult to cool, rough idle, won't like pump gas, will need a ton of clutch. Wouldn't matter, cause more than 700hp @ 7,000 RPMs wouldn't hook on street tires in a Cobra, anyway.

Here's a suggestion. Quote him the $30k. Build him a 700+hp race gas engine, complete with a dyno slip and a video of the pull to show all his buddies. Then, shorten the cam timing and widen the lobe center and back the compression out of it, re-program the Electromotive TEC III system to run on pump gas and stay cool. On the street, 550 lbs/ft of torque will smoke the tires anytime he can find the space.

If he's as you describe him, he'll be tired of it after the first summer any way. Cobras are cramped, loud, hot, buffeting; the absolutely most uncomfortable thing to drive any distance or in traffic since T-buckets went out of fashion. I loved them in my 20s, enjoyed them in my 30s, now, wouldn't take one as a gift if I knew I would ever have to drive it in metro traffic.

thnx, jv.

[DavidHarsay]

Ed,

Thanks for the input, I agree that the HP expectation NA may be unpractical for that car, I posted the Shelby example of what's closer to what I would perhaps recommend instead... but I really need some varied opinions. I like your thoughts on being conservative and going for big cubic inches, although I would be personally pleased with a turbo motor from my end of it.

C Stevens, I think you're headed towards the direction I have to educate myself about... I need to look into that Eliminator block. Not in a big hurry.

There was a Cobra replica on the track at the Firebird East road-coarse a few years ago, which had over 600HP and big Goodyear roadracing slicks, it was pretty funny how fast he passed me on the straights, and I'm afraid my story telling back then made a deep impression.

Personally I would say that 400-500hp would be much more appropriate, but it's not my car.... but then in about 10 years I may be going through the same.

[Troy Patterson]

Hmmm, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me - with some development.

Why not use big heads? The car won't want for low end response at 2200-2400 lbs. with just about any V-8 and a 6-speed. Use the big heads, flow the big numbers and make the big horsepower.

Cam for street use? The better the heads flow, the less radical the cam is necessary, right?

Modern cam technology has come a very long way, and for a motor pushing toward the $30K mark, that shouldn't be an issue.

Compression? There is a lot to be learned from the high compression motors run in the Engine Masters Engine building competition - on pump gas.

The Engine Master's motor I was involved with only ran 10.5:1 comp., not by design, but because of a problem with the crank grinder at the last moment. We made something like 550 hp at 6500 rpm, 426 lbs. tq at 2500 rpm - with only two days on the dyno prior to the final day of competition. We ended up with a mildly cleaned up Super Victor and basically tried on two cams only breifly. Certainly we had a few radical items which would not make it into a street engine, but without the highly restrictive (and hp limiting) constraints of the competition and we could have made 750 hp with our little 359 cid w/ 10.5:1 with ease any way.

Induction? Why EFI when carbs make more power? Sort of like shooting yourself in the foot. A large Independent Runner system will buy back low end and throttle response, increase mid torque and build horsepower, if cammed correctly.

Ah, there's more, but how much $ will I see from it?

Best Wishes,

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[longrodsbc]

Definately go BBF, heck you could buy a Motorsport 514 crate engine with some tweaks and get 700hp


P.S. Im sending you a PM.. Check it out..


longrodsbc

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Guys,
are you overlooking the most important thing here?

Friend asked me to assemble from scratch, a 700hp+ street rod engine, normally aspirated, to be installed in a factory 5 cobra replica. One of those mid-life crisis deals, and he just talked himself out of an 08 Viper to do this... someone I've done work for in the past.

That does not mean a Fire Breathing Monster that drives like a Bucking Bronco.

I will agree that with a lighter car you have more lieniency with compression and even with cam and heads, but I still contend that a smaller runner head would be more streetable. I also agree that to get the upper end horsepower you would need more air flow.

I do not think that this application would be right for the engine mods and size heads you would need for over 700 hp while N/A. Period. I stressed large cubic enches becuase that is the only way you are going to get max power from a tame N/A engine.

ON the other hand. You can get much more power than he requires and have a very tame street machine except when he hits the pedal by building it as a Turbo car. It can idle however he would like and would be fairly decent with fuel and would be very easy to drive while cruising but still have huge horsepower capabilities.

I prefer the Haltech EFI stuff with computerised boost control for something like this, but each person has their own preferences. I know that Arizona Speed Sport has done a lot with EFI already so I would think it a natuaral for them to use the ECU they are comfortable with using.

Troy,
I am an old school carburetor guy who can do much with a Holley, but once you get a good aftermarket EFI system tweeked in there is no carb that will have the imediate response in all rpm and load point ranges as you can get with a CORRECTLY TUNED EFI. Remember that with the EFI we are not only tuning injector timing we are corolating it with our ignition tuning as well. Proper tuned aftermarket EFI is far beyond what is OEM, in production cars. We still are using carbs for max power engines.

Ed

[stevek]

Pop on over to http://www.460ford.com/ and take a look around.
There are a number of people making 700+ N/A and with factory heads. Using factory iron will mean that the engine will be a bit 'snotty', but moving up a level and using some late model Kaase heads for example can certainly tame it down driveability wise whilst giving higher HP numbers if your client feels it is necessary. All within the budget too!

While I think of it, a nice fellow over there who goes by the tag of ByronRace has a cobra rep. Use the search option to look him up.

[PackardV8]

Greetings, Ed,

A turbo setup can be made to fit, but why? While enough money can fit anything into anything, a BBF already crowds a Cobra in every direction. A Ford 514 crate engine with a bit more cam, an Electromotive TEC III and lots of bling will give him all the horsepower he can handle on the street.

Unless one has tried to cool a high-horsepower Cobra in traffic, one cannot understand the challenges involved. A middle-age-crazy-dork I built one for years ago had to be talked down from a big roller cam, two 4-bbls and 700hp to a hydraulic cam, one 4-bbl and 550 hp. Good thing, because he actually drove it in a parade with a Miss Congeniality sitting on the deck holding to the roll bar and waving. It was nearly 90-degrees, two hours of stop-and-go idling. The 550 hp engine did survive, because I had insisted on a custom aluminum radiator with two fans and an oil cooler with its own fan. Even then, with the water and oil at 220-degrees, three fans blowing hot air over the headers, the firewall got so hot, it melted his sandal soles and also ruined the paint on the hood. That's real world Cobra driving.

thnx, jv.

[Ed-vancedEngines]

moving up a level and using some late model Kaase heads for example can certainly tame it down driveability wise whilst giving higher HP numbers if your client feels it is necessary

I wish that Jon or one of the cylinder head guys would step into this thread. Obviously many of you just don't get it! His customer is looking for something streetable like the Didge Viper he was looking to buy. By using the Jon Kasse new heads or the Blue Thuinders or the big heads of anyone you have just turned street driving response to crap.

It is not a quastion of if you can make over 700 hp with a BB Ford it is a question of doing it and not having a monster that would stumble everytime he puts his foot into it at low rpm and moderate throttle and cruising driving rpm. Bigger heads and bigger cams just make it worse, not better.

I have looked a lot at what the guys over at that site are doing and they are doing it pretty good. That is with race engines though. Not with street DRIVING engines that are easily streetable. I have not seen anyone over there talking about over 700 hp in their daily street cars.

Other than additional cubic inches and forced induction, just about everything you can do to give it more horsepower will take away from the low rpm street drivability of any car.
With Big Runner heads at low rpm and cruising rpm fuel falls out of suspension in the runners because it just is moving too slow.


Ed

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Jack,
That is what I keep saying. The key here is a wealthy guy who wants to street drive his High Dollar Cobra Kit Car and it will not be a happy customer with a Fire Breathing Monster of over 700 hp N/A.

That could be done with a turbo though. A tuirbo engine for street is very docile and easy to drive. That is why I keep saying Turbo with EFI. Drivability with gobs of horsepower.

A turbo setup can be made to fit, but why? While enough money can fit anything into anything, a BBF already crowds a Cobra in every direction. A Ford 514 crate engine with a bit more cam, an Electromotive TEC III and lots of bling will give him all the horsepower he can handle on the street.

Unless one has tried to cool a high-horsepower Cobra in traffic, one cannot understand the challenges involved. A middle-age-crazy-dork I built one for years ago had to be talked down from a big roller cam, two 4-bbls and 700hp to a hydraulic cam, one 4-bbl and 550 hp. Good thing, because he actually drove it in a parade with a Miss Congeniality sitting on the deck holding to the roll bar and waving. It was nearly 90-degrees, two hours of stop-and-go idling. The 550 hp engine did survive, because I had insisted on a custom aluminum radiator with two fans and an oil cooler with its own fan. Even then, with the water and oil at 220-degrees, three fans blowing hot air over the headers, the firewall got so hot, it melted his sandal soles and also ruined the paint on the hood. That's real world Cobra driving.

thnx, jv.

I also agree that the engine compartment is rather cramped and if he had a 550 horse engine in it he probably would think it was bigger. I can see 550 hp BB as very drivable. I can not see it in a 700 Horse version though.

Ed

[rmcomprandy]

Jeez, some of those CHI Headed "Clevor" 434 cid entries in the last Engine Master's Contest were already there; and at only 6500 rpm as well...!

Tame down the lift on the camshaft while using a little more duration and then getting a "FAST" fuel injection set-up would probably be over your target number.

[Troy Patterson]

Troy,
I am an old school carburetor guy who can do much with a Holley, but once you get a good aftermarket EFI system tweeked in there is no carb that will have the imediate response in all rpm and load point ranges as you can get with a CORRECTLY TUNED EFI. Remember that with the EFI we are not only tuning injector timing we are corolating it with our ignition tuning as well. Proper tuned aftermarket EFI is far beyond what is OEM, in production cars. We still are using carbs for max power engines.
Ed

I don't know, I have had tremendous luck tuning with the combination of Weber Power Plates and the variety of modifications I have performed on carbs. Couple that with a large cfm IR system and I don't see any EFI beating, let alone matching it.

A properly built and tuned carburetor is very responsive at all throttle positions and loads. If it is not, then the carb isn't as great as you think it is, or the tune isn't.

I must admit, I use 1:1 primary / secondary throttle actuation, a huge advantage to improving throttle response, but it is only possible to this degree with the hole package. I know, I've tried.

There is a sharpness associated with a well built and tuned carb that can't be matched "by wire."

"... there is no carb that will have the imediate response in all rpm and load point ranges as you can get with a CORRECTLY TUNED EFI."

You've obviously never tried one of my carbs.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Ed-vancedEngines]

Troy,
I have never worked with a Weber so I don't know. When I talk of carbs I am mostly talking about the Holley and other versions of it, the Carter and other brands of it, and the Rochector, and even the old Strombergs, which are still around some in street rods. I am ignorant of Weber except by reputation.

Ed