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Tunnel Ram and 660 Holleys

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Tunnel Ram and 660 Holleys

Postby SandRacer » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:26 pm

I now run a Super Victor (4150 style) and a 1050 Dominator on my 406 sand car. It has 13.8 comp, ported pro-1 Darts, full roller. My question is; can I gain a few H.P. with a tunnel ram an dual 660 setup? Class limited to 23 degree heads.

I now have a 2" open style adapter that has been blended into the manifold. At this point I run 3.95 second to 4.01 times and would like to always be in the 3's. As far as how it runs at this point, it's near it's class record in MPH at 80, just need a touch more!

thanks,
Tom
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tunnelram

Postby bigjoe1 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:30 pm

I am a very big tunnelram fan, and I have 35 years of good experiences on such a change. On any serious engine such as yours, the tunnelram is ALWAYS worth 40 HP, It does have something to do with the RPM that you turn the engine, the higher the better the results. The 660 carbs are very hard to beat in this case.JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Postby SandRacer » Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:53 pm

Thanks, Joe. Holy Cow!, 40 h.p. is beyond my expectations. I may need some help tuning these carbs, I have a Holley Pro Dominator tunnel ram they are going on. I am thinking it should be real easy to match this combo to my heads.

Does anyone have experience tuning the 660's?

thanks,
Tom
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660 carbs

Postby bigjoe1 » Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:34 pm

That is the beauty of these carbs. The jetting is 98 percent perfect out of the box. You will not be more than 5 or 6 HP from perfect with the original jets. They came with # 76 pri and a drilled plate with an 076 hole in it. That is the same asw a # 73 real jet. I have run lots of these combos on the dyno, an you NEVER have to go up or down more than two jet sizes.This should very easy to make run very good. JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Postby Old School » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:23 pm

I have ran them with good results. Bill Jenkins went in depth on these carbs in the book "The Chevrolet Racing Engine". One of the tricks he used to lean the idle was placing a .017 wire in the idle feed restriction.

I recommend the book not only for the carb section the it covers so much that several reads will find something new every time. The books are on ebay most of the time. It is the one with the Vega on the front.
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Postby Whitewater Racer » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:11 am

My experience is with tandem mount on a Weiand Tunnel Ram. Motor only runs at 6400, but for extended lengths of time (6-30 minutes at a time). 30hp over the Dart-Wilson with one Holley 850HP.

My setup does not like any more than 6.5psi (running) for fuel pressure. I try and clock the needle and seat inflow opening with the fuel flow direction. I find it easier to do with Quick Flow needles and seats. The flats are in line with the fuel inlet windows. Quick Flow also has a secondary plate conversion kit (part #34-2 for side pivot bowls) that lets you change secondary jetting with jets instead of with plates. We run at a lot of different altitudes and with temps from 45-100 degrees. I also have changed the main metering plates to billets from Quick Flow. Sent them the dyno sheets and they "built" a set of main metering blocks with removable/changeable emulsion bleeds. Better response. Feels a little more brutal in the midrange. We do some on and off decelerate / accelerate type of running, not just wide open and then shut down. Never miss a beat. Also have to idle around (1100rpm) for up to 10 minutes at a time before we get to start.

Motor is 361 ci- 12.2:1 CR- 262/272 @ 050 on 108 .667 lift solid roller. Dart 23° Pro 1's
-Gary Labrum
Wilder, ID

"faster, Faster, FASTER until the Thrill of SPEED overcomes the FEAR of DEATH!"
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Postby Ed-vancedEngines » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:31 am

I too love the 660 center squirters.

WQhat he said about using a wire to tailer the fuel idle is correct, and is in my opinion really neat. You don't need to enlarge them or buch them. You just try different wire sizes until you get it like you want. You just use copper wire and take a strand out, cut it maybe 7.16 inch long and bend it in the shape of a V stick one leg of the V shape each in each hole and let the gasket hold it in place. Really easy idle fuel tuning. Then you can fine tune with screws.

Another little trick that does help is to grind the throttle slot to allow the primaries to open maybe 1/4 open before the secondaries open. Makes it much more drivable in the pits. You would be surprised at the throttle response those little things have and how much power you can make with them.

Ed
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Postby maxracesoftware » Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:55 pm

SandRacer wrote:Thanks, Joe. Holy Cow!, 40 h.p. is beyond my expectations. I may need some help tuning these carbs, I have a Holley Pro Dominator tunnel ram they are going on. I am thinking it should be real easy to match this combo to my heads.

Does anyone have experience tuning the 660's?

thanks,
Tom



I have a Holley Pro Dominator tunnel ram they are going on

a much better Intake than the Holley Pro Dominator Tunnel Ram
was the "highly prized and sought after" Edelbrock Pro Ram II

that Edelbrock Intake has a full 1" plus inch longer runners
and typically makes much more Torque and HP more than the Holley !

on your 406 cid you are not going to make Peak HP
as high as a little 292cid Comp Elim engine.
you need a longer runner than the Holley Intake to make serious Torque
and HP.

back in 1980's we back-to-back the Edelbrock against the Holley
like everyone else was trying out....the Edelbrock ran faster
down the DragStrip and was worth a lot more Torque than the Holley
even on a hi-rpm little 292cid Engine.
On your 406cid, it will be an even greater gain in Torque !!

I had to spend a week worth of time and effort with a bunch of epoxy
extending the runners on those Holley Intakes and then make a plenum
spacer to get back plenum volume .....it took all this work just
to get back even to an Edelbrock .

in a couple of Hours i'll hopefully find the Dyno Test Data
on the Holley Intake -vs- the Edelbrock Pro Ram II
and post.


PS--- Ed-vancedEngines ...knows "Skipper" 's 377 in his Vega,
it had one of those Edelbrock Pro Ram II's :)
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TR1YX

Postby SBC » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:58 pm

How does the SBC TR1YX compare to the PRO RAM II ? TQ lower? HP peak lower?

Sorry bout the Hyjack.
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tunnel ram

Postby bigjoe1 » Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:59 pm

I always liked the Edelbrock Victor ram. I ran dyno test on these way back when, and the Edelbrock had 10 lbs more torque, but almost the same max HP up at around 8000 RPM. The Edelbrock worked better on big engines (406 and larger)JOE SHERMAN RACING
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Postby SandRacer » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:24 pm

Well I have a pro ram II coming, please don't tell me they suck now!

I hope it hasn't been opened up, if it has what kind of repair could get the runners back down so I can match to the head runners?

Tom
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Postby maxracesoftware » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:04 pm

SandRacer wrote:Well I have a pro ram II coming, please don't tell me they suck now!

I hope it hasn't been opened up, if it has what kind of repair could get the runners back down so I can match to the head runners?

Tom



its sort of a Miracle you've found a ProRam II

at one time..they were so highly sought after
you could easily get $1500 for a stock one...
thats just before Sheet Metal Intakes became the norm !


the Pro Ram II's made more TQ and HP than the Victor Ram
on the 292cid..but the Victor Ram worked a little better
on an engine like your with really great flowing Heads.

it would probably be a Toss-Up
on either the Pro Ram II -vs- Victor Ram on your 406,
it just depends on your Head Flow + Cam + desired RPM Range.

another Intake thats pretty good is the rare
Team G Tunnel Ram

in Dyno Tests they ranked best to worst
1- Edelbrock Pro Ram II for smaller engines..have to cut-open + weld back
2- Edelbrock Victor Ram for larger engines..easy access
3- Weiand Team G..easy plenum access for mods
4- Holley Pro Dominator..easy access

however, the Holley Pro Dominator lends itself to easier mods
and plenum access , and can be made to work very well on
331-355+ hi-rpm engines
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Postby maxracesoftware » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:17 am

August 29, 1983 at Performance Products in Rockford , IL
SF-800 Dyno

Chevy SBC 4.030 x 3.170 = 323.48 cid
#034 Cast-iron Bowtie Heads 2.080/1.600 227 CC Port Volume
Lunati Solid Roller 286/288-108 installed on 108 CL
.025" lash across ,1.65 Jesel, 13.38:1 CR, 47 deg BTDC
Holley 660 Carbs 73 jets

Cast-iron #034 Bowtie Heads had 5.410" Intake Port CenterLine Length

EGT's averaged 1240 deg F with Pro Ram II Intake

here's Dyno Torque Numbers
Note=> these are the raw uncorrected TQ numbers
the Corrected Numbers were much higher,
but i've seem to have lost that Sheet or misplaced it .


Holley Pro Dominator -VS- Edelbrock Pro Ram II

RPM___Holley__Pro Ram II
6250__348.8___375.8
6500__342.1___378.9
6750__352.3___377.6
7000__354.9___373.3
7250__367.6___384.2
7500__377.5___381.7
7750__369.8___383.8
8000__367.7___391.0
8250__361.5___383.8
8500__351.7___363.3
8750__347.3___352.2
9000__341.0___353.4

9000__584.4___605.6__Raw HP Numbers, UnCorrected

according to PipeMax,
this Engine needs a Total Induction Tuned Length= 11.113 @ 9000 RPM
for best Power Curve from 7000 to 9500

the Edelbrock Pro Ram II has Runner Length= 6.000"

6.000 + 5.410 = 11.410" ..just a little too long,
probably why the Holley is catching up quickly at 8750 on up


the Holley Pro Dominator Intake has Runner Length=5.250"

5.250 + 5.410= 10.660" ..too short to make great Torque
between 6250 to 9000 RPM

on the Flow Bench,
there was no measurable differences in Flow Numbers
between those 2 Intakes

thats one thing the FlowBench can't tell you,
it can't tell you Wave Tuning Effects !
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Postby maxracesoftware » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:44 am

DragStrip Tests


Out-of-Box Manifold Runner Volumes

226 CC at 5.250 Length = Holley Pro Dominator Tunnel Ram

264 CC at 6.000 Length = Edelbrock Pro Ram II

325 CC at 6.281 Length = Edelbrock Victor Ram


August 29 to Sept 3 , 1984 US Nationals at Indy
B/FX Class Camaro
2212 Lbs
6.20 rear gears 5-speed trans 103.75" RollOut
Lunati solid roller 286/288-108 on 108 CL
#292 Turbo cast-iron heads 2.080/1.600 valves 211 CC Port Volume
#292 Turbo has 5.195 Intake Port CenterLine Length
#292 Turbo Heads flowed 292 CFM @.750" at 28" 4.000 Fixture
12.67:1 CR BME Pistons and 5.690 Rods
4.030 Bore x 2.870 Stroke = 292.9 CID
51 deg BTDC

Edelbrock Pro Ram II ported to 285 CC Runner Volumes
6.000" Length


Edelbrock Victor Ram ported to 335 CC Runner Volumes
6.281" Length

Holley Pro Dominator ported to 252 CC Runner Volumes


28.60 Barometer ...don't really know if this was Station or Corrected ?
most probably Station

August 29 to Sept 3 , 1984 US Nationals at Indy

with Holley Pro Dominator= 8.850 ET at 152.54 MPH

with Edelbrock Pro Ram II= 8.660 ET at 154.90 MPH
crossed 9500 RPM

ran as fast as 8.560 ET at 154.90 MPH GatorNationals, FL

set NHRA B/FX Record at 8.620 ET in Fremont , CA

and reset NHRA C/A Record at 8.440 ET in better air


the #292 cast-iron Turbo Head
has an Intake Port CenterLine Length = 5.195"

according to PipeMax,
at 9000 RPM, the 293cid would like a Total Induction Tuned Length=11.138

5.195 Head + 6.000 Pro Ram II = 11.195" Total
about exactly matching PipeMax prediction

approx 650-660 HP at 9000-9200 RPM out of 293 cid
with #292 cast-iron Turbo Heads maxed out Ported to 211 CC's
2.080/1.600 valves back in 1984
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Postby maxracesoftware » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:53 am

1984 296 CID 4.030 x 2.900 B/FX Intake Tests


Edelbrock Pro Ram II -VS- Edelbrock Victor Ram

Edelbrock Pro Ram II ported to 285 CC Runner Volumes
6.000" Length

Edelbrock Victor Ram ported to 335 CC Runner Volumes
6.281" Length



Edelbrock Victor Ram= 8.721 ET at 154.63 MPH

Edelbrock Pro Ram II= 8.624 ET at 155.44 MPH
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