Dampers

[PDQ]

Would like some advice/opinions on harmonic dampers. Most manufacturers I've spoken to have not only different opinions but sometimes contradictory ones ! The damper will go on a SBC 400 GM block, 3.75 stroke internal balance light weight crank at 48 lbs, aluminium rods, light weight Mahle pistons. Will be drag race only, 6800 rpm. 3200 lbs door car. Besides your pros and cons please specify name brand. Thanks !

[Wolfplace]

Would like some advice/opinions on harmonic dampers. Most manufacturers I've spoken to have not only different opinions but sometimes contradictory ones ! The damper will go on a SBC 400 GM block, 3.75 stroke internal balance light weight crank at 48 lbs, aluminium rods, light weight Mahle pistons. Will be drag race only, 6800 rpm. 3200 lbs door car. Besides your pros and cons please specify name brand. Thanks !

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I have a couple of suggestions, ATI & ATI
Pros: Used by every cup & busch team as far as I know
Recommended by every crank manufacturer I know of which is the part you are trying to protect.
Recommended by every engine builder I know.
JC Beattie Jr (from ATI) spends a lot of time doing testing in shops that are set up to do crank twist measurments & is available to tune a damper to a specific application if necessary.

Cons: None

Did I mention I prefer ATI Dampers

[JOHNZ]

ATI here as well...custome service has not been the best to me, but their balancer is pretty much as wolfplace said.

[jcbuncc]

What was your trouble with Customer Service at ATI? Just wondering so I might be able to correct it in the future.

Thanks,

JCBJr at ATI

[speedtalk]

Thanks for stopping by JC

[PDQ]

Wolfplace made two reccomendations and we chose to go with one of his choices , ATI ! Customer service/tech/sales at ATI sold me on thier product. Some great folks over there, they took the time to give a novice engine builder like me all the facts and information on balancers so I could make my own informative decision. thanks to all at ATI. Don T. , maybe you could get someone from ATI on SpeedTalk. Give all of us some harmonic lessons !!

[Wolfplace]

Wolfplace made two reccomendations and we chose to go with one of his choices , ATI ! Customer service/tech/sales at ATI sold me on thier product. Some great folks over there, they took the time to give a novice engine builder like me all the facts and information on balancers so I could make my own informative decision. thanks to all at ATI. Don T. , maybe you could get someone from ATI on SpeedTalk. Give all of us some harmonic lessons !!

=
Look no further than two posts back
JC is the man at ATI & has probably forgotton more than most of us think we know about dampers...

[Aaron]

Guys,

Has anyone run an Innovators West viscous damper? Please share any experiences you've had with this damper.

Thanks and best regards,

Aaron

[Wolfplace]

Guys,

Has anyone run an Innovators West viscous damper? Please share any experiences you've had with this damper.

Thanks and best regards,

Aaron

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I am not familiar with this damper, I am assuming this is a fluid filled damper??
I do not use or recommend any fluid filled type dampers on anything I do but I do not build Diesel engines either
Seriously, a fluid filled damper probably does a very good job up to about 6500 or so but any information I have seen suggests it will become a detriment after this.
Also, every crank manufacturer from Scat to Oliver that I have asked recommends the ATI or at least something other than a fluid filled type.
And since this is the part the damper is helping to protect I tend to listen to their suggestions.

[Aaron]

Guys,

Has anyone run an Innovators West viscous damper? Please share any experiences you've had with this damper.

Thanks and best regards,

Aaron

=
I am not familiar with this damper, I am assuming this is a fluid filled damper??
I do not use or recommend any fluid filled type dampers on anything I do but I do not build Diesel engines either
Seriously, a fluid filled damper probably does a very good job up to about 6500 or so but any information I have seen suggests it will become a detriment after this.
Also, every crank manufacturer from Scat to Oliver that I have asked recommends the ATI or at least something other than a fluid filled type.
And since this is the part the damper is helping to protect I tend to listen to their suggestions.

Mike,

Thanks for the note back. Funny enough, I do build diesel engines and as you know, the hot rods from the factory run viscous dampers.

The torsional vibration data I've seen suggests a viscous damper is better than an elastomer up to 7200 rpm on a SBC V8. I'm running a 400 Pontiac which I plan to shift at 7200 rpm. This is why I selected a viscous damper. Does this make sense?

Best regards,

Aaron

[jcbuncc]

Hello,

Innovators West damper is not viscous, like you are thinking. That damper has Clutches and some sort of clutch fluild inside of it. But not a silicone fluild. I have only ever had one here at ATI and it was for a racer, with an I-6 Jeep motor, who was having the spacing set up the same for one of our dampers since he was not getting the results he wanted with theirs. Namely timing belts breaking every weekend.

Over the past 15+ years there has been only one company that has had no trouble, no recalls, no design changes, and no bankrupcy problems, that is ATI. Fisher, Innovators West, TCI, and Fluidampr all have done atleat one of those things. That should tell you someting about our product and how it works.

Not all diesel engines come with viscous dampers anymore. Cummins for example has atleast 2 dampers that are elastomer. As people are tuning up their duelles and work trucks, the need for better dampers has happened. That is why I have the Cummins dampers here.

Also in the tractor pulling world, the engine builders are looking to ATI to fit them with a damper that works. Southern Illinois Crankshaft is a good example. Mike builds some very large, very awesome motors. How about a 230lbs crankshaft that starts life as billet, for a 600Ci inline 6? We make an 8in damper for him with an oversized inertia weight. He has bought 20 in the last 2 years for his engines.

I will not tell you that Silicone filled dampers do not work. But I do know for a fact that when you get above a "stock" RPM, they stop doing their job. [u]5,500 to 5,800 is it for fluid[/u]. I have no problem telling people who stay at or below those RPM's to use a Stock damper or silicone filled damper.

Example, GM's 572 Crate Motors. The peak RPM on those engines is 6,000 for the little motor and 6,800 for the big one. Look at the damper on those engines, 8 in standard damper from ATI's shelf with a white face decal. Not a fluid damper for those "low" rpm engines.

Last thing to think about. Why does Fluidampr not have a 2 piece damper and hub setup like ATI's. Answer, they can not get the bolts to stay in the damper and hold it together. Why? Because the damper does not function above 5,800 rpm. Bolts backing out is a common sign of harmonics.

JCBJr

[GUEST]

AFTER READING THESE MESSAGES I HAVE SOME CONCERNS WITH MY CHOICE OF DAMPER. DOES ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING BAD OR GOOD TO SAY ABOUT POWERBOND DAMPERS. THANKS FOR ANY IMPUT.

[jcbuncc]

There is nothing wrong with Powerbond dampers. However all you are getting is a newly made STOCK style damper. You have an inside piece, then a layer of rubber, and then the inertia weight or outside part. You have the inherent problem of the outside ring, where your timing marks are, being able to move. The first problem when that happens is you loose your iginition timing. When the STOCK style damper is asssembled, they pour rubber in between the inside part and the inertia weight. Then the unit is driller to be balanced. So if the outside ever moves your damper is now out of balance and your timing is wrong.

Only advantage to stock style dampers is the price. However, if you have a simple street car, turning stock RPM and making around stock HP, the damper will be doing its job.

JCBJr

[Wolfplace]

Just let me add a little to this.
If it is the SFI one or it is a nodular iron outer ring they are ok for mild stuff but I do not recommend the stock cast iron type replacement dampers for a performance deal at all.
I have only witnessed one come apart & that was enough to convince me I didn't really want one any more,,, kind of like stock flywheels,, you hear all the time from people who like to tell you how they been runnin them for years with no problem so there is nothing wrong with them,,,, all you need to see is one come apart & it will convince you this is not a part you want any where near your feet

A little off the subject but I have posted this before I since I wandered off to flywheels here is some more regarding safety & flywheels from my personal experiences:

I had one come apart in a car almost 40 years ago at Fremont Raceway & it made shrapnel of the stock cast iron bellhousing & took part of the floorboards & part of the dash out of a 55 Chevy.
I was VERY lucky to say the least.

I watched one come apart in a blown alcohol dragster at Bakersfield back when I was still driving for Santos & it broke every bolt holding the can to the engine & the inside of the can looked like a grenade went off in there.
Watched a well known Top Fuel car cut damn near in half at Orange County & there were pieces of his clutch in the pits on the other side of the grandstands.

My best suggestion is to run a scattershield & good flywheel along with a quality damper

[EngineTech1]

I agree with all who recommend ATI dampers, I wouldn't run anything else on any engine that I intended for any type of serious competition. There are others out there that get used for various reasons including contingency money but if I'm doing something for myself then to me quality and performance, and winning, is more important than using sub par components to get a check.