23* compared to ls2

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23* compared to ls2

Postby nevdos » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:55 pm

question for the ls motor experts
can you compare the two outright
i guess i am asking, will the two motors built similarly, make the same power,or does one have an advantage over the other?
Currently i have a 383ci 23* sb chevy
flat top pistons w 6 in rods
good oil pan and tray
afr 227 eliminators 320int-240exh at 650 lift
comp solid roller hi 250-low 260 at 050 630 lift
supervictor 2925
1-7/8 headers
runs mid tens(10.50s good air-10.60 in summer heat) at this time
i am looking to build a ls based motor
something between 375-400 in with mildy ported l92 heads(should flow similar numbers, if not better than the afr's)
single plane intake,1000hp carb with msd programmable ignition system
both engines would have same compression or more, and same header size
well i am wanting to know if its possible to get the same performance from the ls based engine ?
and if so ,what cam size do you recommend and what kind of rpm will it need to turn
i currently shift at 6800-7000rpm
can i run a hyd roller, or do i need to go to a solid roller
i have no problems running a solid roller if it will get the job done
thanks
nevdos
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Postby Tony Mamo @ AFR » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:03 am

How much power are you trying to develop?

What type of compression

What application?

The L92 heads aren't everything they are cracked up to be (very large intake runner not particularly efficient with a very mediocre exhaust port). They produce OK power when worked on but aren't the holy grail Gen III heads by any means. Good value for those on a budget though.

I have built some very impressive pump gas engines (with AFR cathedral port heads) in the low 600 range that will run all day long on 91 or better octane with a really spot on tune.

Building a complete 407 CID engine right now with our new 215 AFR cathedral heads. I anticipate that engine might produce 610 HP and 550 ft/lbs if everything falls into place like I hope....and this is a very drivable combination with a 242 single pattern hyd. roller with a smooooth 114 LSA. It will have razor sharp throttle response and great part throttle grunt with only a 215 cc intake runner on a 400 CID shortblock (Gen III runners have a smaller cross section than a comparable Gen I design given the same cc's). It's probably close to the equivalent of running a pair of our 195 Comps on a 406 Gen I piece.

Not an inexpensive build by any stretch but a remarkable output given the broad scope of its demeanor (you could literally drive to work every day in traffic with the A/C on in the combo mentioned above....then drive to the track and run 130 trap speeds in a 3400 lb ride....ET dependent on choice of tire and how aggressive you dare to be).

Here is a quick street clip of my former 383 with a 242/248 solid roller. It still managed 21 MPG in 6th gear on a long highway run and produced 615 HP on a SF902 engine dyno (on 91 octane). Car went high tens in pure street trim @ 130 in so-so air (1200 ish D/A) with purposely soft 1.7 ish 60 foot times. I always kept the tires aired up so I could drive home instead of getting a lift on the flatbed. The C5 drivelines are stout but far from bulletproof and I have had my share of expensive broken diffs (cracked housings, broken output shafts, etc.).

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/540- ... _58201.htm

Long story short....IMO even the best 23' stuff of today wont quite keep up with a really dialed in LS combination....but the gap has closed a bunch with the recent crop of really good 23' heads now available. Perhaps when discussing an all out high compression drag race set-up its even a little closer in performance (comparing a killer Gen I set-up versus a Gen III design), but the beauty of the Gen III stuff is the power you can produce on pump fuel with only 28-29' of lead for timing....it has a better chamber design and is extremely efficient. Its a very impressive platform not to mention easy to work on and very lightweight. Also, much more stable in the valvetrain department with hyd roller cams in the low .600 lift range stable to 7200 or so with the right spring and valvetrain set-up. Once again....another perk if your trying to build a dual purpose pump gas hero.

We are about to launch a new 245 cc cathedral piece that flows 360 CFM and 265 on the exhaust. I'm building a 447 CID shortblock right now to debut and feature those new heads on sometime in January likely. Its a reasonably aggressive pump gas build with a solid roller (260/266 on a 114 LSA)....hoping for 675 HP and 600 ft/lbs. Might make closer to 700 but the long intake runners of the FAST intake will likely force an early power peak and limit my ability to get there. The shape of the curve should be explosive though and I expect 500 ft/lbs of torque at an extremely low RPM.

Nevdos, if you're discussing a combination with lots of compression and the right cam I would go with a big single plane intake (Super Vic) and go with a carb to keep costs down and keep it simple. With the obvious power these properly set-up pump gas engines are capable of, an aggressive high compression engine could really haul the mail for you if you select your parts wisely.

Will share the 447 results with you guys when everything finally falls into place in a few months....

-Tony
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Postby nevdos » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:22 am

thanks for the replyTony
we have spoke in the past
i have the 227 heads you fixed for me up here, in denver
i am looking to change things up a bit, so i am really considering building an ls motor
i am not concerned with driveabilty,or the need to pass emissions
i am looking to make power,period
i dont care if its on race fuel,and it will be in a dialed in light chassis(low 1.30 60fts as of now)
wondering who makes good cams for these things and do you want to stay with wide lobe centers or do they wotk when tightened up a little bit,like 110 or so
also do they tolerate higher compression ratios?thanks again
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Postby Big Rat Attack » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:51 am

If you just want the LS go for it, but have you considered just changing pistons to 18 degree using the brodix 18X head that allows all use of your 23 degree stuff, no offset lifters needed, reuse your 23 degree rocker arms, the headers you have now. or you could use the spread port exhauxt version for even more exhaust flow.
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Postby T » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:37 pm

What car? whats the weight?What converter?what gear?
For sure with a 4.125+ bore would be a step in the right dirrection but even with what you have or whats on paper their seem's to be some things that could be better.

I think there is alot left in current engine. Cam, Intake work and maybe converter. I have done some of both sl1 and sbc and I would stick with your 23* stuff.IMO sl2 and sbx thats a different story. But you should look into changing somethings in your current set-up.
Good Luck,T
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Postby Tony Mamo @ AFR » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:49 pm

Guys...

He's running in Denver at serious altitude....I get the feeling alot of people reading this would easily miss that.

He's actually running very well and would easily be somewhere in the 9's in just OK air.....probably close to mid nines in the cooler weather with ideal very negative D/A track conditions.

Nevdos....I remember helping you out awhile back clearly.

Drop me a line one day at AFR....I can get you up to speed on the LS thing and we can talk about tweaking your current combo a bit more with some of our latest and greatest cylinder head technology (235 comes to mind). Even in the last 12 months we have seen a strong move forward in some of the 23' SBC products we are now producing.

Regards,
Tony
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Postby T » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:21 pm

X2, The thing is running good! But I also think that more lift and If the intake has not been worked ,then he's leaving some on the table. Plus we don't even know much about the car itself... T
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Postby nevdos » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:01 am

thanks for the reply Tony M and others
im not against changing my combo per say,but i dont want to spend anymore money on new 23 heads
i feel if i have to buy new heads, i should look at something more modern is all
so therefore what do you Tony,or any others recommend i do to improve upon my combo?
also the car is pretty scienced out as aa far as the chassis goes
it wont get much lighter and it 60's very well
its a fox body mustang,true 10.5 car :wink: so it works very well
it will run very low nines on a little nitrous as it sits(1.32 60 ft on the back tires :D ) ,but i am looking to pick it up some on motor is all(as is everyone lol)
thanks again as all recommendations are welcome
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