High end engine simulation software packages...

Y2KZX12R · Post by **Y2KZX12R** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:19 am

I'm looking for some input on the highend software packages available from Optimum and Blair.

Has anyone on here had any seat time with Virtual 4-Stroke ?
Or 4stHEAD and 4stSOFT ?

Kiggly · Post by **Kiggly** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:30 pm

I've used virtual 4-stroke a lot and like the package. Do you have any specific questions?

Kevin

Y2KZX12R · Post by **Y2KZX12R** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:34 pm

How would you compare it to EAP and Dynomation 5?

Piledriver · Post by **Piledriver** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 7:46 pm

...and is it worth the extra $5000 for folks who MODIFY engines, rather than do clean sheet designs? (for the 4sthead and Virtual 4 stroke)

(It appears the Blair stuff also requires virtual 4 stroke for the actual simulation, at leat for proper integration)

I think the Blair DOS based SW set (4stsoft) runs ~ $200, but I couldn't find a current price.

4stsoft is a parameter calculator, not a sim, but the output could probably be entered in a random sim manually.

Post by **SchmidtMotorWorks** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:55 pm

I think the Blair DOS based SW set (4stsoft) runs ~ $200, but I couldn't find a current price.

If you find out any info and the price and where to buy the DOS code please post it.

Y2KZX12R · Post by **Y2KZX12R** » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:10 pm

I got this pricing in an email from Prof Blair. I had to weed thru the PDF file to find the actual pricing.

"The price of a single perpetual licence as defined above for the 4stSOFT software suite is........ UK£500.00 (five hundred UK pounds sterling)"

"The price of a single perpetual licence as defined above for the 4stHEAD software suite is....... UK£7000.00"

The pricing structure is overly complicated. You need to email them and see the PDF file. I couldnt begin to explain it. There is dozens of prices depending on what part of the world you live in and what country and even if you live in the mid west of the usa vs. the east coast.

You can forget about Optimums software. Thats $30,000 per year.

Piledriver · Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:47 am

I hate it when that happens, esp variable pricing base on how deeply they think they can "do" you.

AFAICT, the SAE version used to sell for ~ $150 when they were available. Sadly, the licenses probably aren't transferable.

Of course I'm still trying to figure out why KIVAv3 isn't public domain... Your tax dollars at work.

There is a nice GPL CFD package called OpenFOAM I have toyed with simply to visualize what squish actually DOES (for example) but it is miles from usable by most folks who arent dedicated Geeks, and probably years from being a back end of a simulator for end users.

OTOH some $random programmer might whip up gods own perl script overnight and have the whole thing run as a Blender plug in.

That's the blessing (and curse, if you have ever used Blender, you'll understand

) of Open Source software.

timdog · Post by **timdog** » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:32 pm

Are these packages really worth the money and effort? Not only is there all the modelling and data input time but you still need to back it up with testing. Maybe big oem's or universities can afford it but small shops that need fast turnover ....... well its not on my shopping list.

Y2KZX12R · Post by **Y2KZX12R** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:19 am

Piledriver wrote:There is a nice GPL CFD package called OpenFOAM I have toyed with simply to visualize what squish actually DOES (for example) but it is miles from usable by most folks who arent dedicated Geeks, and probably years from being a back end of a simulator for end users.

So, is this CFD program available? Whats the cost?

Piledriver · Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:45 am

Y2KZX12R wrote:
Piledriver wrote:There is a nice GPL CFD package called OpenFOAM I have toyed with simply to visualize what squish actually DOES (for example) but it is miles from usable by most folks who arent dedicated Geeks, and probably years from being a back end of a simulator for end users.
So, is this CFD program available? Whats the cost?

http://www.opencfd.co.uk/openfoam/

It's under the General Public License, whick you should read at least once. It is Free for any use.

The GPL is sort of the opposite of copyright, and has held up to numerous legal challenges. It is sometimes jokingly referred to as "copyleft".

It gives the USERS of the software the right to copy/modify/redistribute etc, but effectively prevents you from "stealing/closing" the free code and going commercial, or using it in a non-GPL program. (The actual original AUTHOR of the code can release it under multiple licenses if he/she likes)

Nothing says you cannot sell support for the "free" software, tho, Redhat makes plenty of money on Linux.

I'm not sure OpenFOAM runs under Windows, but likely runs fine under any flavor on Unix (Linix/Solaris/*BSD, Mac OSX etc)

I believe the OpenFOAM developers primarily use Linux.

There is a version of Ubuntu Linux that is designed to run as a "program" under windows, haven't tried it myself.

I have pretty much settled on just using Mandriva after trying ~ everything since 1991.

David Redszus · Post by **David Redszus** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:03 pm

timdog wrote:Are these packages really worth the money and effort? Not only is there all the modelling and data input time but you still need to back it up with testing. Maybe big oem's or universities can afford it but small shops that need fast turnover ....... well its not on my shopping list.

We have used Virtual Engine in both two stroke and four stroke format, as well as the other Blair programs, at the university level.

At the time of their release they constituted state of the art and were very useful. They were far more sophisticated than any other simulation programs then available. In my opinion, they have been eclipsed by more current programs and are not worth the money that Optimum is asking.

In order to make a high level simulation program work, a great deal of quantitative input is necessary, much of which is very difficult to obtain. When the computer time consuming programs are run, they must still be validated against some baseline testing and adjustments made. Then they become an useful, predictive tool that allows optimization of alternative engine parameters at far less expense than prototyping would entail.

For most applications, the benefits are mostly descriptive rather than predictive. The cost (software and staff training) are prohibitive for all but the most advanced race shops.

In my opinion, the best solution is to find a source that has access to the Virtual Engine software and hire them on a project basis.

Y2KZX12R · Post by **Y2KZX12R** » Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:26 am

In my opinion, they have been eclipsed by more current programs and are not worth the money that Optimum is asking.

What are these other programs you are efering to?

We currently use Dynomation and EAP.

Facty · Post by **Facty** » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:11 pm

Y2KZX12R,

I also got the pdf from Blair & Assoc. - you should have tried reading it instead of "weeding" it!

Its all seems fairly straightforward - there is a single one-off price for a licence of the 4stHEAD or 4stSOFT programs... and these licences can be installed on as many computers as you wish!!

It is the compulsory training that has different prices depending on what part of the world you are from.

A864 · Post by **A864** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:59 am

Has anyone run WAVE? I tried to get a grad student to run it for one of my engines, but he got a job before I ever got any results from it.