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Chamber Grooves - what do you guys think?

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Chamber Grooves - what do you guys think?

Postby bc » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:23 am

Here is a site that I found, just wondering what you guys think about doing this kind of thing?
http://www.somender-singh.com/

Do you think that there really is something to cutting grooves into the combustion chamber like this?
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Postby bc » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:12 pm

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Postby Darin Morgan » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:26 pm

bc wrote:Here is an article about it.
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/futurecar/ ... -1,00.html

I dont think he has even the smallest clue of what he is dealing with!
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Postby airflowdevelop » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:29 pm

"Do you think that there really is something to cutting grooves into the combustion chamber like this?"

ABSOLUTELY!

Detonation and loss of charge managment! :roll:
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Postby 67RS502 » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:48 pm

I was thinkin the same thing with detonation.
Also the testing had too many variables along with the cut grooves,
like raised comp. and porting.
On that camaro its hard to believe they were running
45deg. of timing with Pro Action heads, even with 13:1 domes.
I'd like to see a back to back dyno test of these groves:
dyno without, heads come off, cut grooves and dyno again;)
Maybe theres a reason why they havent done that...
Wheres some real documented R&D on this?
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420 - 641hp BretBauerCam, 1.39, 9.79 @ 137.5
383 - 490hp 224/224, 1.56, 10.77 @ 124.6
502 - 626hp 252/263, 049s 1.44, 10.08 @ 132.7
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224/224 HR cam
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Postby Ape » Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:28 am

Looks to me from the principle a lot like the golfball texture pistons or chambers that mcfarland developed.
He supposedly has good results, read the articels on hotrod magazine:

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... ndex1.html

I think it could work but why cutting them logitudinal in a two stroke chamber???
There is always advancement to be made.
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Postby Fkned » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:31 am

My only thought on this is-If it really worked wouldn't the teams that spends millions a year in r&d have found this long ago :roll: -.I don't believe it for a second,and was laughing at my comp the first time I heard of this guy.
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Postby joe » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:15 pm

he's made a heatsink outta the piston . that much is sure whether it creates beneficial "turbulence " or not I can't say. I have my doubts...
It's quite easy to increase the surface area of a piston or chamber and it will catch more heat , but that's a problem as much as it is a solution !

I was thinking about quench geometry the other day though and was wondering if it wouldn't be worthwhile to experiment with a chamber that had quenches on either side of the valve that had EXACTLY the same dimensions.
It occured to me that if one side had a greater quench area than the other side that it might "overpower" the other side and tend to concentrate air/fuel into a localized region . That may be beneficial if you can get it where you want it , but can you ?
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Postby bob cook » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:27 pm

I saw the article when it first came out. I tried to contact him but, had no luck. I think the best way to check it out is a back to back comparison. I just can't afford to do it. There must be something there. I wonder how it would work in a forced induction application.
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Postby ClassKing » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:59 pm

How many years ago did Jim McFarland dimple the @#$ outa the chambers and run 17:1 Cr. on 94 octane?

Answer? 20? at least. So what - It WASN'T efficient enough to make decent, useable power, but,.... it ran. And made for a magazine story.
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Postby gas » Wed Aug 10, 2005 9:31 am

airflowdevelop wrote:"Do you think that there really is something to cutting grooves into the combustion chamber like this?"

ABSOLUTELY!

Detonation and loss of charge managment! :roll:
I take it, you've substantiated your above statement by duplicating the machining
mod, and followed it up with actual tests that disproved claims in above link?

67RS502 wrote:Also the testing had too many variables along with the cut grooves, like raised comp. and porting.
According to link, not all test cases included other variables.

Fkned wrote:My only thought on this is-If it really worked wouldn't the teams that spends millions a year in r&d have found this long ago :roll:
You make it sound as if they would HAVE to be the ones to come up with anything different?
These 'teams' are obviously infallible. :roll:

Guys, can we occasionally think 'outside of the box', in lieu of playing 'follow the leader'?
Learning stops when breathing stops.
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Postby Darin Morgan » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:47 am

gas wrote:Guys, can we occasionally think 'outside of the box', in lieu of playing 'follow the leader'?

There is thinking out side the box, then there is thinking of ignorant inventions because you have no real world experience or knowledge. This is one of those cases. What he is doing is ignorance plain and simple and it does not work. Just because some new Widget gets some press does not lend to its validity! The journalists are often totally ignorant about the topics they cover!
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Postby kdrolt » Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:23 pm

Darin Morgan wrote:There is thinking out side the box, then there is thinking of ignorant inventions because you have no real world experience or knowledge. This is one of those cases. What he is doing is ignorance plain and simple and it does not work.

Rather than just bashing, why not first analyze it and then credit it (or bash it) on the merits, rather than on the advertising?

The notion of a squish pad wasn't ignorant when it was invented, it was just a new concept that might have appeared outlandish to those that didn't first think about "what it was?", and "why it was there?" Ricardo wasn't ignorant by trying a new idea, although you could argue that his critics were certainly ignorant.

If I THINK about what a channel cut into the cylinder head, pointed twds the spark plug, should do, empirically:

A. it seems would have no real effect as the piston climbs from BDC because the column of mixture is tall compared to the tiny channel; the squish region, btw, also has no effect during the climb from BDC for exactly the same reason;

B. when the piston slows, as it approaches TDC, the squish region begins to have an effect -- pushing the mixture out into the chamber (by squishing it). We assume some level of turbulent eddies. The channel, meanwhile, provides a low-resistance path in which the mixture might follow (Why? To seek the path of least flow resistance);

C. so some portion of the mixture that would be squished out is now guided by the channel, and jetted to the plug region. Presumeably the plug has already ignited (some 28 to 40 deg before TDC) so this has the effect of increasing the percentage of mixture burned early in the combustion cycle (making delayed spark a good idea) BUT it also increases the amount of possibly unburned hydrocarbons (in the channel) late in the combustion cycle.

Think of this as increasing the crevice volume (which is bad) in order to speed combustion (and reduce the so-called "negative torque" of pressure rise before TDC, which is good). If the "jet" (my term btw) were aimed properly, it might also enhance dual swirl if the chamber had a heart-shape... and that might help combustion along the cylinder crevice.

There may be more to this than I can think of, but the simple logic in A-B-C above is reasonable so there may be merit in his idea. THAT'S why I am also an advocate of thinking outside the box, rather than just casting it aside.

FWIW I don't work for any firm that markets or sells the idea btw, so I'm not shilling the product. The idea may have actual merit but more controlled tests would have to be done to convince people (including me).

The idea might also be old.... and abandoned... so just because it got a patent doesn't mean it's a useful idea or a new idea. Multiple elctrode spark plugs are older than dirt, yet people manage to get new patents on them. This idea might not be much different, but it was worth reading about and thinking about, IMO.
Just because some new Widget gets some press does not lend to its validity! The journalists are often totally ignorant about the topics they cover!
True and true.

AND it also means you shouldn't just outright trash a new idea just for being new. It might just be another overly-hyped idea (like the Tornado!), or it might be a useful evolution of the squish region.

I'm reminded that the world used to be flat... My $0.02, FWIW.
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Postby ClassKing » Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:28 pm

There's some people,...you just can't reach.
:?
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Postby joe » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:16 pm

I like to think of the old "room full of basketballs" analogy .

You've got a big room full of bouncing basketballs ( just like a cylinder full of molecules when the intake valve goes shut)

You shrink the room and what happens ? The motion of the basketballs becomes faster ,more intense, and most certainly more chaotic.

Now would cutting grooves in the walls affect the flight of the basketballs ? Probably so ! Would it do so in a predictable ,planned fashion so that the course of the wild bouncing balls can be "steered" ? HIGHLY DOUBTFUL !
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