Is $200,000.00+ for an engine to much?

[Darin Morgan]

The cost of racing has almost doubled with the increase in RPM and the component weight rules being set ridiculously low. I really feel that Pro Stock is in danger of dwindling into oblivion. I have never been a negative person but I don't see many teams surviving these enormous cost increases. We have taken steps to insure that we will be racing even though the costs of racing keeps leaping out of control but I don't see a very bright future for Pro Stock anymore. The costs have doubled and will continue to increase at a rate that will squash the field and the average racer out of the class. ( as if that has not already happened ) RPM cost money and LOTS OF IT! Have you guys noticed the dwindling list of Pro Stock teams yet? if not, you soon will. When all the teams had a high level of parity and where .008 apart from number 1 to 20th spot, we had qualifying lists of almost 40 cars! This weekend there are half that many and this is not a one time incident as we will all see. This is a trend that will parallel the out of control cost of Pro Stock Racing.


NHRA needs to do one thing and they need to do it NOW! Rear Gear, tire diameter and tranny gear limits. That's all they need to do. That's it! Its so simple and so easy to enforce. You limit the gears and tires, you limit the rpm and that cuts the cost exponentially over the next ten years!

I really want to here what you guys think about this issue. Tell it like it is please.

[gofaster]

Darin,
That sounds like a good common sense approach. Possibly add a higher minimum weight to reduce the need for ultra light components made of exotic materials?

It seems like other rules I've dealt with in the past that were meant to reduce costs actually drove costs higher. There will always be people in every level of racing who have the resources to throw money at their equipment.

In many cases it is a benefit to the sport as they may be thinking outside the box and bringing technological improvements to their level or class of racing that their competitors can learn from. People without great R&D budgets can learn a lot by observing what the winners are doing and adapting their own equipment to pick up the same competitive edge.

Then there are the few who run in a class where they are literally buying victory because they can afford to spend enough money to stretch the rules beyond their intended spirit. These are the guys who show up at a $500.00 race with a $100,000.00 racer. I don't consider that to be very Sportsman like.

Your proposal sounds like a comon sense approach to level the playing field, financially.

[learner]

Darin, your correct with rpm=money. However, it seems to me that the most money is spent in R&D, i don't race at that level so correct me if i'm wrong. It's unfortunate that it has come to this because i'm on of the guys who likes to be able to come up with new ideas to beat the competition. I think the best way to bring down or maintain the cost is to limit or prohibit the expensive parts made of rare alloys and such, and to limit R&D and rpm. I really hate to say that! What would be the best way to limit R&D? i don't know. Maybe the teams should have to buy the same heads all made by the same CNC program. Maybe getting away from the expensive titanium parts. The problem with this is someone is going to suffer. The people who make these parts will be losing jobs. There really is no good way around it. but if something isn't done, as you stated, there won't be much for pro stock racing in the future.

[Robert Kane]

Darin, I agree 100%. Pro stock is getting way ahead of itself in dollars spent. I can remeber going to Englishtown when I was younger and there was 54 cars on the qualifying list. 54 cars!!! The spread was about .10-.15 ,but there were guys running right on the bubble out of their own pockets who would persist and get in the show a few races later. The sport is headed toward Nextel Cup budgets, but the sport is nowhere near that in terms of exposure and sponsorship. It used to be racers working their way up, now it has become millionare egotists who spend millions out of their own pockets ( I think one has just announced a partnership in top fuel) and just buy their way into the show. I think it forces teams into full time development programs running 2 and 3 shifts of around the clock engine programs with huge payrolls. Tell me, who can break into the field from a sportsman level like that? My dream has always been to race at that level, but realistically it could only happen if I win the powerball lottery. The days of the Bob Gliddens and Warren Johnsons and guys like Buddy and David coming up from sportsman ranks is over. This will also have a trickle down affect into comp and Super Stock where the big money guys who can't make the jump to p/s will spend all their $$ in Comp. A few years back I loved the truck class because it really seemed like a stepping stone from sportsman to pro, but NHRA felt like it wasnt mainstream enough I guess. Now we have to watch ProMod? What kind of class is that?
I agree the rpm limiting will slow down the spending, but is the class too far gone now? It would take a few years to get interest back and the field would eventually tighten even more I think, once the slower teams catch up. It would surely lower the prices of engines, or at least slow the pricing increase if there were a dozen guys capable of selling engines that could get in. Do you think it would happen? I lost interest in the fuel classes long ago, ( I usually leave ther stands when they come up, and have actually put my head down and slept. You should have seen the looks I got when that happned!) so I don't really know if their tire, gear, nitro limits have curtailed spending in those classes.
I'd really hate to see the class gobled up by 2,3 and 4 car mega-teams, and guys like your team, Jenkins, Iaconio, Schmidt, and the others who really have talent be swallowed up because there was no bazillionaire feeding a defense department like budget into your bank accounts.
just my humble two cents worth.
Robert.

[Motorman 407]

$200.000 for an competitive pro stock motor! Give me 2 please. The cost of pro stock is peanuts compared to most any other motorsport that get similar coverage. You can race pro stock for just the tire account of a Nextel cup team. Look at the investors starting to get in like Evan Knoll, Koretsky etc. And how can Larry Morgan be competitive working out of his garage just a couple of years ago if the cost of parts has gotten so totally out of hand? (cost of pro stock racing has been out of reach for most regular dragracers for 20 years) The car count is down not just in pro stock but in almost every class from local bracket racing to superclasses and comp. Top sportsman, Pro mod and fast street legal type racing seems to be taking over from some of the traditional classes and that is part of the lower car count. Another reason is the higher cost of everything else like fuel, hotelrooms, truck/trailer maintenance etc combined with the fact that people dont have as much or dont want to spend their extra cash with the economic situation the world is in right now. Pro stock is more exiting than ever with Anderson, Johnson, Glidden, Jenkins duking it out every race. And who is that guy #1 in Seattle? This is the type of racing where out thinking the competition is still alive and trying to impose "restrictor plate" type rules will defenitely kill the class. But if someone should discover that an engine block made out of solid 24 carat gold is faster, rules should be made to prohibit the use. Same goes for using F1 type on board computers with 100 sensors to monitor every minute detail of the run.
Darin I think you guys ar just frustrated for the moment but you will be back on top.

[2.2=8]

I rarely post on this forum but I just have to say I totaly agree with Darin this subject. What happened to STOCK, in Pro stock?,Cars are starting to look like funny cars, I too lost interest in Fuel racing, the cars are all the same, the interviews are all the same, looks like Pro stock is going the same direction. In my humble opinion the first mistake NHRA made was allowing multi car teams, Then engine leasing (I know, you have to make a living and hard to enforce),Ever growing corporate involvement (too much car manufactures money)......I guess I,m just missing the old days of Pro stock, when there were real stock cars like Jenkins,Rousch,Glidden,Sox&Shoes,and even AMC,s.....All the makes were represented, and I realize there was manufacturer involment then also, BUT its time to cut it off. The very thing that allowed this sport to become a BIg money making buisness for NHRA, is the thing that is wrecking it. Have you noticed how NHRA telecasts are all about the drivers, I could give a rats ass about the drivers personal life, lets see the equipment.....unless of course the driver happened to build the car then ask hiim about that! Look how popular the SS Hemi challange is becoming, Its like Pro Stock used to be. Now if the other makes could participate we would have a really good show..........sorry just had to rant................

[Rick360]

.
I had noticed that the R-M team was absent from the last couple races, and have wondered why. I guess I have my answer - $$$.

Multi-car teams are filling the field with very competitive cars and making the single car teams a thing of the past. Twice as much data, not twice the cost.

Professional racing costs money and there is no way around it. Teams that have/get sponsorships that will fund the team well are going to have a better chance of success and that success will lead to better paying sponsorships.

Any time you add a rule to level the field, you will usually give the mega-buck teams a bigger advantage. They have more resources to R&D and will adjust to the new rule faster. They have already shown they are willing to spend it. That money will go to a different area, keeping them in front.

I think Comp Elim needs some rule changes since it is a Sportsman class, more than P/S does. Comp has grown beyond the reach of most racers. I think NHRA should raise the minimum weights in most Comp classes so the mega-buck super light titanium-everything chassis aren't necessary to be competitive.

My $0.02 ...

Rick

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

The cost of racing will rise proportionatly to the value of winning. So the problem is that there are a small number of sponors that are willing to spend massive ammounts to win and then it drops off sharply.

What could be done to break this situation?
I prefer claiming rules, what are the negatives of claiming rules? It seems to me that a $50,000 claiming rule would peg the cost of engine very close to $50,000

I too miss the good old days of Pro Stock, is there some path to return?

I think the turning point that got us in the current situation was when the rules changed from having pound per cubic inch for different engine types to the 500 inch single weight rules we have now.

Sure, there was imbalance in the old system, as I recall the 351 Cleveland had an advantage at one point or was it the 340 Chrysler?. I do remember enjoying races that could include almost any V8 built at the time from small block chrylsers to hemis, to SBC to BBC and a variety of BBFs. That was interesting to watch!

[Ben]

Over the last three seasons the potential coming demise of Pro Stock as one of NHRA’s core professional categories has been there for all to see, yet no one is saying or doing anything about it. Check the numbers on the accompanying chart. The numbers don’t lie, and they demonstrate that over this three year period the number of national event entries has steadily and inexorably declined.

While it’s true that three of the races thus far contested in 2005 have had minimal entry increases over the previous year (none greater than two), and two have remained the same, the overall trend is still downward. Of the 11 races remaining on the schedule as of our deadline, all showed significant downturns in entries between 2003 and 2004.

Heading into this year’s West Coast Swing rumors have swirled about that a number of competitors wouldn’t be making the haul westward, and while this is true, the reasons aren’t as simplistic as they might appear. Many of those who have already said they aren’t going to compete in Denver, Seattle or Sonoma, which includes Rickie Smith and the Dart Chevrolet, the Pontiacs of Reher-Morrison, Mike Edwards and Mark Pawuk, as well as several others, appear to have valid reasons for skipping those races. None are currently in contention for the points championship, all are awaiting the completion of their new Cobalts or GTOs, and all have admitted the additional costs of high altitude testing prior to Denver simply makes the whole trip financially difficult to justify. Based upon those comments it would appear that had these teams not been awaiting new hardware they would have made the West Coast Swing as they have in past years.

Despite that explanation there doesn’t appear to be a similar explanation for the overall downturn in entries over the last three years. Racers who in the past were considered part-timers have now become only occasional entrants, while others, like highly talented Tom Martino, have completely faded from the scene.

The underlying cause for most of the decline in participation is money, or rather, the lack of it. Money drives drag racing just as it drives every form of motorsports, and it’s almost impossible to legislate it out of the picture. In the eyes of some, money "ruins racing," but it’s hard to swallow that argument. In the days following the CART/IRL split many of those loyal to Tony George’s concept of endless circle track racing were old timers able to compete for minimal investments (Zmax Lubricants executive Ed Rachanski, the former Midwest UDRA president, was one of those competitors). They liked the restrictive nature of the IRL rules package, which insured they’d be able to race without breaking the bank. But, when team owners like Roger Penske joined the fold, all bets were off regardless of the rulebook. Penske’s deep pockets enabled his multi-car team to dominate, often at the expense of the so-called little guys, most of whom quickly faded away.

The same thing has happened in Pro Stock drag racing to a certain extent, but no "blame" can be placed at the feet of those willing to underwrite such endeavors, for they’re not breaking the rules, they’re only taking advantage of them. Exotic engine internals, dozens of carburetor setups – which now run in the neighborhood of $5,000 per pair -- and custom made intakes and as many as 10 or more high-horsepower powerplants to choose from obviously gives those teams a huge advantage, but there’s no legitimacy in suggesting that it’s an unfair one. They’ve done nothing wrong. All they’ve done is bury the competition in money.

While a struggling newcomer is seeking an inexpensive engine rental and a used chassis, those at the top of the "haves" list may be ordering new cars from three different chassis builders just so they can ultimately select the one that works most effectively. When it comes to testing they’re the ones spending days at a time at the track while another team might be hard-pressed just to make the next race. For them testing is completely out of the question if for no other reason than they just can’t afford the diesel fuel to get their rigs to the track, nor can they afford a few more hotel room nights and restaurant meals.

Life’s tough and so is racing. It’s not the "haves" "fault" that they have more to work with than the "have-nots," but this widening gap between the two is ultimately going to kill the class because when you get right down to it, you can’t make a national event out of Greg Anderson racing Warren Johnson running Jeg Coughlin facing Jason Line up against Kurt Johnson with Richie Stevens awaiting his turn. Good competition… Okay, competition is important, but let’s face it, when the word "Pro" appears in your class designation it’s more about show business than it is about pure racing, so let’s re-phrase. A good show demands the inclusion of more than a full field of contenders. Without it qualifying is a yawn and eliminations racing can be just as boring.

Say what you will about NASCAR, but they’ve also been ahead of the curve in recognizing the increasing costs of racing and reacting swiftly to them. The Nextel Cup Series continues to dominate the headlines and TV ratings, with only an infinitesimal percentage of those watching caring at all that the cars are about as exotic as a ’57 Chevy. In recent years a significant number of expensive new bits of hardware have been proposed for use in Cup competition, and by and large the sanctioning body has said thanks but no thanks. Seldom do they find actual fault with the product itself. It’s more a matter of What will this cost the teams? that drives their decision-making.

NHRA continues to miss the mark when it comes to accepting or rejecting new bits of hardware, and the blame for this falls squarely on the shoulders of people like Ray Alley and Don Taylor. I have the utmost respect for Ray Alley and believe him to be well qualified to be running the show in Top Fuel and Funny Car. The man has an unmatched background in fuel racing that spans more than three decades as an innovator, fabricator, aftermarket manufacturer, driver and tuner, but his knowledge and understanding of Pro Stock is limited at best. The unfortunate statements Mr. Alley has made to the Pro Stock competitors about a variety of technical issues has only highlighted his lack of understanding of these cars, and has resulted in his being widely dissed by those who compete with them. In the case of Mr. Taylor an all-too-typical aspect of his dealings with the racers is that one prominent racer and an engine builder are still awaiting an answer to a basic technical question asked of him five months ago.

When NHRA mandated the changeover to beadlock wheels in Pro Stock – a changeover that they tried to lay off on Goodyear despite the tire manufacturer’s statement that they didn’t foresee it becoming necessary for another four years – Alley said that no team would have to spend more than $20,000 making the switch. What Alley apparently didn’t know was that the leading chassis builders were demanding $30,000 just to re-configure the cars, and that didn’t include the costs of additional testing, new gearing and axles and, in a few cases where competitors were running slightly older cars, complete new chassis.

Last year NHRA began doing a better job of inspecting the Pro Stock entries, particularly in the engine area, but since then a growing number of competitors have come to realize that a considerable amount of the allowable hardware has become so expensive as to be detrimental to the class itself. In other areas, such as the $7,000-per-unit 6-inch clutches that have suddenly become de rigeur, NHRA has completely missed the mark. These clutches, which include an additional disc and floater, should have been outlawed from a costs versus benefits perspective. With every single part that’s proposed for Pro Stock the question should be, does the class need this part, or is it just something that might work a little better than what it’s replacing but at five times the cost? If we accept this part can every competitor easily afford it along with the requisite number of spares?

Partially as a result of all this new hardware the cars are running through the lights at over 10,000 RPM when only a year or so ago the engines were spinning at between 9,200 and 9,300 RPM in the lights. The higher the engine revolutions, the more breakage that results. The easy way to hold things in check is either with an engine rev limiter, which is exactly what’s being utilized in the fuel ranks today, or by mandating maximum rear-end gear ratios – another item long in use in the fuel categories.

The NHRA needs to sit down with the PRO and a cross section of Pro Stock competitors and re-write the rules regarding allowable hardware. Even if those meetings result in some teams being forced to abandon some of the hardware they’re currently running, if the class itself benefits from that decision it will be worth the hassle in the long run. Mistakes have been made in accepting some of the hardware currently in use, and NHRA needs to bite the proverbial bullet and make the necessary changes. The association is in the position of being able to change the class from one in which the guy with the most money wins into one in which the guy with the most talent does so. But, before that can happen the NHRA would first have to acknowledge that those mistakes have been made and historically, they’ve seldom, if ever, been willing to admit that they’ve ever made an error.



Taken from an article on www.competitionplus.com

[Racer7088]

Darin,

How much pull do the teams have in the rules? If it really looks like this trend will kill the class they should start revising stuff right now. I like the technology but they could also change the engine so it would become airflow limited like going back to only a single carb or maybe even EFI but with a spec throttle body system. Maybe a few valvetrain size and weight rules and spec materials even. Even a larger engine ala IHRA but with only one carb to keep it slower like the current NHRA 500 inch high rpm stuff. I know this will not change anytime soon though. The NASCAR effect is slowly coming to the NHRA and the technology to turn more rpm is not cheap!

[Motorman 407]

Racers always have and always will cry about cost. If you are in the machine shop business you heard it espesisilly from bracket and super class racers "I cant afford that and I cant affford this" when it comes to headporting or quality parts. And then you go to the races and the same guys are there with $300.000 motorhomes and showing off their $15.000 paintjobs. IHRA caved in an made the Modified class so inexpensive that you could be competitive for nothing yet the class died out because no one wanted to run it. Why? Because it was so ungodly boring. Pro stock might very well be dying but not becuase of the cost but because its boring to a lot of younger fans. If you miss the old days go to reunions. Pro stock is "give it your all" as driver, engine builder and crew and may the best man win. With that said mabye the class need some change. Go to the ultimate push rod Detroit type V8 the IHRA 800 inch stuff and let the new generation in with their 180ci turbo motors and let them compete against each other heads up. Old school against the new generation. The ultimate of two schools of powermaking duking it out. Now that would generate some feelings in the stands.

[OldSStroker]

NHRA needs to do one thing and they need to do it NOW! Rear Gear, tire diameter and tranny gear limits. That's all they need to do. That's it! Its so simple and so easy to enforce. You limit the gears and tires, you limit the rpm and that cuts the cost exponentially over the next ten years!

I really want to here what you guys think about this issue. Tell it like it is please.

Virtually any sucessful/popular racing series has seen exactly the same type of cost escalation. PS seems to be extremely popular with fans and therefore the big money sponsors. Personally, I consider PS engine development to be about the most advanced in the world, F1 included. Unfortunately that doesn't sell many tickets.

If torque/displacement at hp peak rpm is a good measure of engine output, and I personally think it is, PS may be somewhat higher than F1. eg: a 950 hp @ 18000 3.0L engine makes about 1.52 lb-ft/cu. in. @ power peak. If a PS engine peaks power at 9000, anything over 1300 hp makes it better than an F1 in that measure. If you guys are at the hp levels I think you are, you are doing a hell of a lot better with $200K engines than F1 does with 10x+ that amount per copy. That's not much consolation if you run out of money to be competitive.

Limiting engine speeds is a great idea, but how do you limit them in the lower gears? Perhaps NHRA could issue rev limiter modules at the starting line and retrieve them at the end of each race. There is a precedent in Trans Am racing, I think. That, a rear gear rule and a spec tire might halt the rpm race. They could limit the trans to 4 speeds which might broaden out the torque curve a little, and slow the rpm/sec a tad.

None of these things will stop the development (read $), but it might slow the R&D and parts cost escalation enough to save the series.

I have a problem dumbing down PS to the point where 54 (even 32) competitive cars show up for 16 spots. There's not enough sponsorship $ to do that at levels even close to what we have today. Personally it astounds me that PS cars are so evenly matched in performance. That so many different engine/vehicle/driver combinatioins run that close is what makes the class, IMO. Unfortuantely, if you are a few % (or less) off the pace in development and race engines, you are not making multiple rounds, or maybe not making the field.

I hope NHRA prevents the class from self destructing. Your ideas for limiting rpm escalation are excellent ones. Keep talking to NHRA.

[Racer7088]

If torque/displacement at hp peak rpm is a good measure of engine output, and I personally think it is, PS may be somewhat higher than F1. eg: a 950 hp @ 18000 3.0L engine makes about 1.52 lb-ft/cu. in. @ power peak. If a PS engine peaks power at 9000, anything over 1300 hp makes it better than an F1 in that measure. If you guys are at the hp levels I think you are, you are doing a hell of a lot better with $200K engines than F1 does with 10x+ that amount per copy. That's not much consolation if you run out of money to be competitive.

OldSStroker,

F1 is light years ahead of other motorsport including PS. They have a much higher frictional component due to their extremely elevated rpm and they have a much harder time making the BSFC of a more undersquare larger engine due to the super wide bore to stroke ratios which are much worse in surface to volume ratio just to name one disadvantage. Effieciency and thus Tq per inch does not go up with extremely over square engines OR RPM. Of course hp per dollar is even worse!

With moving the same air say a PS truck engine does they have twice the rpm with an extra two sets of rods and pistons and another main bearing and 4 cams and 40 valves so they have a lot more overhead in the potential friction department than any normal pushrod V8 turning half the rpm with no where near the forces on it.

I do love PS and agree that is it wat up there but PS just doen't have the funds of NASCAR and it's not even close to F1.

[cspeier]

I've been involved one way or another in NHRA drag racing all my life. The bottom line is simple, NHRA DOESN'T CARE!!! Never has, never will! In fact it really isn't NHRA to begin with, It's John Force Racing Association or Kenny Berstein Racing Association. If ANYONE wants something changed in NHRA you must go through one of them.

How do I know they don't care: Pro Stock Truck! End of Story...

How do I know they don't care: Same payout for last 20 years!

How do I know they don't care: Deleting the only classes that pay to get in: SG, SC, Comp and several races a year!

How do I know they don't care: Letting Pro Stock Truck KILL Competition Eliminator! All the million dollars of parts had to go someplace. Making new class to fit engine combos. Allowing PST in Comp. Just finding a class to "try" to make them happy! Went from Professional racing to Sportsman racer overnight! Think back to some of the guys who ran PST. They're not racing Comp. They said FO!!

Stealing the only class IHRA had to draw people: PRO MOD!

Let's not even get into Sport Compact!

The problem is this. Most people who look from the outside in "think" or "feel" most teams or people who race Professional NHRA drag racing are either Multi Millioners, or wealthy. Not true. You have many professional, Comp or even SG racers who race because they love the class. What has killed Professional Drag Racing? Don Prudhome, Don Schumacher, John Force, get the picture. Go by a shop in Indy once, they're all just swinging their manhood! Politics, egos, revenue, are what is killing and will kill NHRA.

Back before Pro Stock Truck KILLED Comp. You could buy the best set of SBC cylinder heads for $5000. Since NHRA called PST a Professional class, then killed it, the same cylinder heads cost $10,000. NHRA is the problem!

I would LOVE to see every Pro team, every sporstman team, boycot the event tour. Basically say FO!! BUT.. You'd have a full field of Top Fuel and FC and Pro Stock. Why?? Don Schumacher, John Force, etc. Don't they have like 25 teams each? That my friends is an entire new thread, which I happen to think is BULL$HIT!! What do I know.

[Ben]

PS seems to be extremely popular with fans and therefore the big money sponsors.

Are you sure you're watching the same Pro-Stock class that I am? Most fans don't care for Pro-Stock.

BTW, I hard that a Jenkins Competition NHRA Pro-Stock Season engine lease contract ran about 1,000,000 a year. Can anybody confirm that number?