SpeedTalk Store - Opinion Columns

filling a block

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

filling a block

Postby powerhouse » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:48 pm

Just curious, are you guys using anything other than the moroso block fill to fill blocks water jackets? I have seen references to grout. I wasn't sure if this was someones term for block fill or if they were refering to actual grout that can be bought at a hardware store. thanks Andy
PowerHouse Machine
Andrew Jeffery
508-328-9884
powerhouse
Member
Member
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:28 am
Location: at the track racing a Ford, Massachusetts

Re: filling a block

Postby Keith Morganstein » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:20 pm

powerhouse wrote:Just curious, are you guys using anything other than the moroso block fill to fill blocks water jackets? I have seen references to grout. I wasn't sure if this was someones term for block fill or if they were refering to actual grout that can be bought at a hardware store. thanks Andy


Andy, We've had a bunch of threads about this stuff. The block filling grout is called Embeco 885. Do a speedtalk search (all terms) for Embeco 885 to read more.
"Nil Satis Nisi Optimum"
User avatar
Keith Morganstein
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 4462
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:19 am
Location: MA

Postby Ed-vancedEngines » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:30 pm

Do not use concrete grout. Some guys do but it is a joke. Regular grout shrinks as it cures.

I have never used the Moroso I guess it is ok. I use only the Hard Bloc.

Hard Block sticks to the cylinder walls and sticks to the metal and shrinks very little when cured. IT is good to have a friend with a rubber hammer hitting on the block while you are pouring it.

Level the block with one side up and pur through a funnel.
Pour one side one day and let it sit. Pour the other side the next day and let it sit.

Before you pour get block clean inside with a mild muratic acid solution with water, buy that at paint supply stores. It will also clean concrete, if you want it to or not if you dump it on your concrete ;)

In the 1970's and 1980's we used Devcon, Wow! talk about expensive. It did work though.

I would be scared to try the cheap hardware store concrete grout. I have seen it cure when used for it is for.

Ed
Ed-vancedEngines
 

Postby powerhouse » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:41 pm

thanks guys.
PowerHouse Machine
Andrew Jeffery
508-328-9884
powerhouse
Member
Member
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:28 am
Location: at the track racing a Ford, Massachusetts

Postby Unkl Ian » Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:54 pm

Muriatic Acid is also used for adjusting the PH in swimming pools.

Anyplace that has swimming pool chemicals,should have it in 1 quart,
or 1 gallon sizes.
Just because you never studied the Laws of Physics,
doesn't mean they won't try to kick your ass.
Unkl Ian
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 2849
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:23 pm
Location: Just outside Toronto

Postby n2omike » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:37 am

Here's how I did it....

My street/strip 302 block is filled up to the bottom of the water pump holes.

I have not had any problems, but the extra mass of the Hardblok makes the engine heat up and cool down more slowly. The oil temperature can get hotter than one that is not filled, so good synthetic oil should be used, and if it gets very hot or gets a lot of sustained hard running, and oil cooler should be used. Make sure the cooling system is more than adequate.

As for the actual procedure...

Hardblok will help support the cylinders and keep them round under severe stess. It will drastically improve ring seal under severe conditions, and it's extra mass will help dampen major vibrations.

I would fill it to the bottom of the water pump holes (if that high) to allow for adequate cooling.

I filled mine with HardBlok, as this was the brand that was overwhelmingly recommended over any other... But, I haven't got to run it yet.

Fill the block BEFORE machine work is done. The Moroso brand is supposed to expand as it cures, and will make the cylinders tight. I have heard of people using the HardBlok product AFTER machine work was done without incident, but wouldn't recommend that if it can be avoided.

You do ONE bank at a time. It's a good idea to torque the mains and use a level to get the engine completely level front to back and side to side.

You then mix it up and pour it in. A mixer attached to a drill will make the mixing more effective and faster, and give you more 'pour' time before it starts to set up. An old alternator fan (or even a straight bar) welded to a rod works great for this.

Be aware that each bank will take DIFFERENT amounts of mix to fill.

When finished filling, I used an air hammer set on LOW to help with settling. I welded a fairly thick 1" square piece of steel to the end of one of the chisels to act as my 'blunt' tip. This makes the job go WAY easier. Settling takes place quickly and efficiently.

After it was all settled, I installed a head (and gasket) and let it cure for 24hrs before doing the other side. The head will simulate the loads on the bore when the engine is assembled. (same principle as 'torque plate' boring/honing)

The directions in the HardBlok containor are good, and fairly easy to follow.

If you have a GOOD scale (for reading low weights of less than 10lbs) the 'tall fill' containor is twice as big and will fill two blocks. (comes with two large bags) It's just important to weigh the filler out accurately to the 1/4 pound. The 'half fill' Hardblok is already pre-measured for half filling. (two small bags)

I also cleaned out the water jackets before beginning by filling them with muriatic acid. I let the un-diluted acid sit in there for a couple minutes in each bank before dumping it out and rinsing GOOD with water. It will eat ALL the rust out of the jackets and give a great surface for the Hardblok to bond to. Just be careful. When the acid hits a concrete driveway, it produces a nasty 'acid fog'. As a by product, the driveway will have one VERY clean spot. Wear gloves and eye protection, and try to avoid getting the acid on your clothes. Muriatic acid is found in hardware stores, and is normally used to lower the pH in swimming pools and clean bricks and masonry. (it's usually diluted for this)

Good Luck!
n2omike
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:56 pm
Location: West Virginia

Postby Ed-vancedEngines » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:33 pm

Very good info. Much more complete than I gave. Sorry, I forgot that little importnt bit about having the mains already torqued before filling. I like the ida of torquing the heads down. Haven't done that. I have bolted water pump spacers to the block to simulate that.

Ed
Ed-vancedEngines
 

Postby suicidal racing » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:44 am

does anyone make anything to get block filler out?
suicidal racing
Member
Member
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:48 pm
Location: florida

Postby Supernova » Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:59 am

Dynamite :wink:
David Clapp
Image
Supernova
Member
Member
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Wed May 18, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Western Kentucky

Postby 3V Performance » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:18 am

I herd low expanding grout from local Lowes / Home Depo work just as good. Any thoughts?
3V Performance
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1086
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:41 am
Location: Sherrills Ford, N.C.

Postby Ed-vancedEngines » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:42 am

Most grout is very low expanding. It shrinks.

If you would be seriously thinking of using a concrete grout in an engine, let me make a suggest to do firts. Make you a little box where you can remove the sides of it with screws. Fill it to the top with the grout. Let it cure real good and not the cured level difference from where it was when wet. Remove the sides and see if it is stuck to them or if it is even touching them. That is what it will do in your engine. Notice how hard it cures and how easy it is to chip pieces off.

There is no way in the world that I would put concrete grout in an engine. Hard Block may cost some money or the Moroso but it is far less money than the Devcon we used when all this craze began.

Ed
Ed-vancedEngines
 

Postby Keith Morganstein » Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:35 am

Ed-vancedEngines wrote:Most grout is very low expanding. It shrinks.

If you would be seriously thinking of using a concrete grout in an engine, let me make a suggest to do firts. Make you a little box where you can remove the sides of it with screws. Fill it to the top with the grout. Let it cure real good and not the cured level difference from where it was when wet. Remove the sides and see if it is stuck to them or if it is even touching them. That is what it will do in your engine. Notice how hard it cures and how easy it is to chip pieces off.

There is no way in the world that I would put concrete grout in an engine. Hard Block may cost some money or the Moroso but it is far less money than the Devcon we used when all this craze began.

Ed


I agree with Ed:!:


BTW, The Moroso works fine and is only $15.00 bottle retail. Two bottles do a half fill on most engines. If that's too expensive then you are in the wrong business.
"Nil Satis Nisi Optimum"
User avatar
Keith Morganstein
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 4462
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:19 am
Location: MA

Postby 3V Performance » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:19 pm

Ed-vancedEngines wrote:Most grout is very low expanding. It shrinks.

If you would be seriously thinking of using a concrete grout in an engine, let me make a suggest to do firts. Make you a little box where you can remove the sides of it with screws. Fill it to the top with the grout. Let it cure real good and not the cured level difference from where it was when wet. Remove the sides and see if it is stuck to them or if it is even touching them. That is what it will do in your engine. Notice how hard it cures and how easy it is to chip pieces off.

There is no way in the world that I would put concrete grout in an engine. Hard Block may cost some money or the Moroso but it is far less money than the Devcon we used when all this craze began.

Ed


My bad it must have been very low shrinking not expanding, but I have talked to some guy's that are useing it in there engines. Just talked to a guy @ Denton dragway Texas the other day said he has been useing it for a while. ( 427 tall deck filled to top, runs a 6-71 injected on alky and 80to90% nitro ) in a alterd running 4.10 in the 1/8 mile. Seems to work good for him.
3V Performance
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 1086
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:41 am
Location: Sherrills Ford, N.C.

filling a block

Postby jimivice » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:45 am

In the early days block filling done was with grout, because that was all that was availible. Today I wouldn't consider it. I use Hardblock and have had considerable success. Filling should be done before any machine work reguardless of the manufacturers claim. Cyls will distort. I will not go into the procedure of filling because it has been explained adequatetly by others on this sight. I will emphisize torquing the mains during filling in the effort to stress the cyls. for an actual condition. When honing the block a torque plate is a must. If the block is filled up to the water pump holes there isn't much distance from the top of the fill to bottom of the deck surface. The blocks that are filled are primarily production blocks and benefit with a torque plate hone with no fill. In a filled production block, the distortion becomes more amplified in the reduced area. To illustrate the amount of distortion in a block by torquing the heads. Chevy had a publication of tech tips. In one article, main caps were placed in the registures with no bolts and aftering torquing the heads the caps fell off. In essence head torque not only distorted the obvious distortion at the bolt holes but was transmitted through the whole block. In a filled block distortion might be kept to a minimum at the mains and the cyl. wall. But the distortion in the the area unfilled becomes more consitrated-this is the most critical area and should not be negleted.
jimivice
 

Postby Wolfplace » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:02 pm

L89 Chevelle wrote:
Ed-vancedEngines wrote:Most grout is very low expanding. It shrinks.

If you would be seriously thinking of using a concrete grout in an engine, let me make a suggest to do firts. Make you a little box where you can remove the sides of it with screws. Fill it to the top with the grout. Let it cure real good and not the cured level difference from where it was when wet. Remove the sides and see if it is stuck to them or if it is even touching them. That is what it will do in your engine. Notice how hard it cures and how easy it is to chip pieces off.

There is no way in the world that I would put concrete grout in an engine. Hard Block may cost some money or the Moroso but it is far less money than the Devcon we used when all this craze began.

Ed


My bad it must have been very low shrinking not expanding, but I have talked to some guy's that are useing it in there engines. Just talked to a guy @ Denton dragway Texas the other day said he has been useing it for a while. ( 427 tall deck filled to top, runs a 6-71 injected on alky and 80to90% nitro ) in a alterd running 4.10 in the 1/8 mile. Seems to work good for him.

=
L89
What does very low shrinking mean?
It still gets smaller :lol:
How does he know it works for him?
How thick are the cylinders to start with in his block?
Could be they were a quarter inch + in which case there a good chance they would have been fine with no fill in the first place.

There are a lot of blocks out there with nothing in them that appear to be happy as clams without it.
It could very well be he is using grout but in my opinion he is pretty much amusing himself,,, it shrinks.

Could be that he would be fine with no fill
Could be the walls are flexing to the grout
I do not believe either scenario is what you want a filled block to do

My suggestion is if you are going to fill a block use the stuff that has proven itself to do what is expected & this ain't grout :wink:
Mike
Lewis Racing Engines
4axis CNC block machining


A few of the cars I have driven & owned
A tour of my shop
The Dyno
And a few pics of the gang

"Life is tough. Life is even tougher if you're stupid"
John Wayne
User avatar
Wolfplace
Guru
Guru
 
Posts: 3285
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:39 pm
Location: Mendocino County, Northern CA

Next

Return to Engine Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], JohnnyB, mdurham47, monzadude, mreperf, ptuomov, Speedbump, swatson454 and 16 guests