for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

[turdwilly]

If you have dirty oil i think the bushings would be more susceptible to seizing up. But thats just what i read

That was my assumption - that in street applications folks weren't changing the oil frequently, which led to the seizures. But I only built the engine & won't be in control of how often the owner changes the oil, so I went with the Morel UltaPro needle lifters.

[carmakerevive]

interesting really that morel and jesel have opposing views on them

Thats performance/motorsports marketing 101....

Find what your competitor does, do the opposite and swear black and blue that yours is the best!

[Belgian1979]

Ah, got it: the BM axle is a non-ferrous material, presumably with lubricative properties similar to that of typical bushings. The resulting larger bearing diameter, positive oil supply and hydrodynamic wedge would contribute to low friction and long life under a wide range of operating conditions.

Self lubricating bushing ?

Ok, that means that clean oil is imperative. However, usually a self lubricating bronze is softer....it's a material that sacrifices itself.

[MadBill]

In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

[Belgian1979]

In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

Actually I have a case involving a sluice with a hinge point that had a self lubricating bronze. The bronze turned on stainless and was clearly intended to be the wearing part.

[statsystems]

In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

Tribological?

Damn. Where's my dictionary?

[Belgian1979]

In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

Tribological?

Damn. Where's my dictionary?

Study of interaction between surfaces that slide on eachother (or any other type of movement where they interact)

[MadBill]

In many instances it is the harder material that wears. Abrasive particles can embed in the softer one and abrade the harder.

Also, I didn't suggest the Black Mamba axle was self-lubricating, just that it appeared to be non-ferrous and thus presumably chosen for some tribological property.

Actually I have a case involving a sluice with a hinge point that had a self lubricating bronze. The bronze turned on stainless and was clearly intended to be the wearing part.

On the other hand for example, in Vincent V-Twin motorcycles circa 1948-55, the rockers pivoted on pressed-in shafts like tiny wrist pins, running in aluminum trunnions. Neglect by the previous owner of one of mine had brought on numerous problems, including wear on the loaded upper surface of the pins, to the extent that the portions within the oil feed holes were left unworn and protruding like a tiny volcanoes. New pins fitted snugly in the old trunnions, but wore quickly because of the previously-embedded grit particles. Fitting both new pins and trunnions solved the issue.

[cjperformance]

...Look at the bushing, you can see a mark that goes from one side to the other, this is on the loaded part of the roller in line with a flattened skid on the outside of the wheel. Measures up at .0005" of a dip in the bush at that point...
Prior to pull apart, the roller wheel 'felt' smooth to turn, most of the time, then suddenly it would grip up then if turned further ir turned backward it would then free up and feel fine again, then occasionally grip up again. See the little flaw in the body im pointing the pick at, when I pulled the wheel out then started inspecting and noticed the flaw I touched it with the pick and a little flake of metal came out of there!
Fwiw all othe lifters were fine.

If I'm not reading too much into the data, sounds like the roller seized due to flaked debris, causing the bushing to indent at the contact line due to lack of rotation? if so, this could perhaps be classed as a lifter issue but not a bushing failure.

Definitely not blaming the bushing here, if anything imo was to blame its the lifter body, last pic I posted shows a tiny flaw near the oil hole next to the wheel, I think whats hapoened is either a piece of metal from that flaw or something embedded there from the factory and stuck in place with the tacky/waxy pre lube these come with, has then loosened up with movement and hot engine oil when running, the flaje has then moved out and acted as a wedge like brake in the wheel leading to the failure. Even with the .0005" dip in the bush the wheel turned smooth and free then would get hard to turn , almost lock, then with some effort OR by turning the wheel backward it would then free up and turn fine again for several revolutions then randomly lock again, at which time there would be no sude clearance in the wheel! When unlocked there was correct side play. I 'think' the flake was there from point of assembly because the flake is too thick to fit between the fork and wheel after assembly.

[Rowdy Yates]

Would it be possible to change the wheel and axle of the normal Morel bushed lifter to the Mamba style wheel and axle? You can buy EZ roller lifter with bearings and convert them over to a bushed style lifter. Would be nice as I've got Morel 6177 bushed Lifters and worry about debris and the Mamba's don't have this problem.

[MELWAY]

Once again, looking for experiences.

Cup, Truck and Xfinity series all use needle bearing lifters........no rev kits!

If you could use a bushed or black mamba lifter would it be better for you?

[Belgian1979]

FWIW last winter I had to do work to my intake and I got a chance to check all my needle lifters (Morel). These are used with a revkit. Did about 4000 km on the street. Lots of idling. No issues to be found with the wheels.

[Rowdy Yates]

My Idea won't work.... From the man himself. Mamba Lifters allow more oil contaminates vs 6177's that's why I asked. It's just money. So I'll work with what I have as 1k + another $1200.oo in lifters, I Gotta ask! I like the newer technology..... Things I do different : ring size - standard Gen V GM , lifters- Morel Black Mamba and newer Melling low Volume oil pump. Not to bad considering parts come out so often.