not guess the hp but guess the ET??

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by RW TECH » Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:42 am

MTENGINES wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:59 pm

Actually the other advice he gave you is good advice.. Get a better converter.
Ok, I'll take this for a run, and the going in assumption is a 6400 RPM converter flash point.

If a "better" converter is run with the power curve in the red trace, it will not wind up being faster than it would be if the same "better" converter is run with the blue trace.

Red trace makes about 3-5 more ft lbs than the blue between 5700-6200, but Frankenfurter claims that won't make any difference because "Below 6400 is ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS in a drag car with a 6400 converter". If we go by what he's saying, the blue trace will be faster, since it makes a tic more torque between 6200-6800 RPM.

In reality, the blue trace actually was faster than the red, and the blue trace pushed the converter harder, to a higher flash point, than the red one.

That means power below converter flash actually does matter.

Image

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:51 am

RW TECH wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:42 am
MTENGINES wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:59 pm

Actually the other advice he gave you is good advice.. Get a better converter.
Ok, I'll take this for a run, and the going in assumption is a 6400 RPM converter flash point.

If a "better" converter is run with the power curve in the red trace, it will not wind up being faster than it would be if the same "better" converter is run with the blue trace.

Red trace makes about 3-5 more ft lbs than the blue between 5700-6200, but Frankenfurter claims that won't make any difference because "Below 6400 is ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS in a drag car with a 6400 converter". If we go by what he's saying, the blue trace will be faster, since it makes a tic more torque between 6200-6800 RPM.

In reality, the blue trace actually was faster than the red, and the blue trace pushed the converter harder, to a higher flash point, than the red one.

That means power below converter flash actually does matter.

Image
AGAIN, because you have the wrong converter. I will admit, in the beginning, we were talking about 2 different applications, your referring to a foot break stocker, I am talking about trans breaked drag cars. How many converters have you tried? 2? You may need to try 6+ to get the best one, or try a different company. Coan and Ultimate followed by PTC. Ati are good as well. All others are behind the times.

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by Frankshaft » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:13 pm

Frankshaft wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:51 am
RW TECH wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 8:42 am
MTENGINES wrote:
Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:59 pm

Actually the other advice he gave you is good advice.. Get a better converter.
Ok, I'll take this for a run, and the going in assumption is a 6400 RPM converter flash point.

If a "better" converter is run with the power curve in the red trace, it will not wind up being faster than it would be if the same "better" converter is run with the blue trace.

Red trace makes about 3-5 more ft lbs than the blue between 5700-6200, but Frankenfurter claims that won't make any difference because "Below 6400 is ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS in a drag car with a 6400 converter". If we go by what he's saying, the blue trace will be faster, since it makes a tic more torque between 6200-6800 RPM.

In reality, the blue trace actually was faster than the red, and the blue trace pushed the converter harder, to a higher flash point, than the red one.

That means power below converter flash actually does matter.

Image
AGAIN, because you have the wrong converter. I will admit, in the beginning, we were talking about 2 different applications, your referring to a foot break stocker, I am talking about trans breaked drag cars. How many converters have you tried? 2? You may need to try 6+ to get the best one, or try a different company. Coan and Ultimate followed by PTC. Ati are good as well. All others are behind the times. Neil Chance are good too.

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by 86_regal » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:29 pm

I just don't understand why the "more torque" or "peak torque" rhetoric persists when talking about drag racing...?

If torque BY ITSELF were so important, why isn't every track and sanctioned race class in the country FLOODED with cars with Cats, Cummins & Detroit diesels with 1000lb 16 speed transmissions and two speed dump truck rear ends?

Why did everyone in drag racing go in the opposite direction, with the revitalization of the powerglide, HIGHER stall speed converters and MORE RPM?

user-17438

Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by user-17438 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:53 pm

86_regal wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:29 pm
I just don't understand why the "more torque" or "peak torque" rhetoric persists when talking about drag racing...?

If torque BY ITSELF were so important, why isn't every track and sanctioned race class in the country FLOODED with cars with Cats, Cummins & Detroit diesels with 1000lb 16 speed transmissions and two speed dump truck rear ends?

Why did everyone in drag racing go in the opposite direction, with the revitalization of the powerglide, HIGHER stall speed converters and MORE RPM?
Only the guys that caught on did.. Apparently some here still have no idea. You don't see 2500 rpm formula 1 cars

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by AMXstocker1 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:58 pm

Jeff Lee wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:23 am
Adkins uses some red sealant from Harbour Freight placed with a putty knife around the water ports ONLY on a used Cometic MLS. Sorry, I don’t have the sealant name with me...I’ll try and find it tomorrow.
Don’t forget SCE makes a head gasket which has an embossed wire ring around the cylinder walls. I forgot which version it is called. Sorry...it’s late and I’ve had a long day!
Never mind..I looked it up
http://scegaskets.com/store/amc/amc-v-8 ... er-s29255/
Different bore sizes available. I would have used these except the thickness I need is not available. Next engine I will probably spec my deck height so I can use these SCE gaskets. I presently use Cometic MLS on my 390.
that sce gasket is interesting, we already reordered cometics and adkins said to use a small amount of ultra copper around the water passages. jeff do you use extra headbolts??? oh and i ran into Mike Cotton at a nhra divisional in tulsa months ago and he said you know each other anyway, thanks for the input.

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by GARY C » Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:36 am

86_regal wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:29 pm
I just don't understand why the "more torque" or "peak torque" rhetoric persists when talking about drag racing...?

If torque BY ITSELF were so important, why isn't every track and sanctioned race class in the country FLOODED with cars with Cats, Cummins & Detroit diesels with 1000lb 16 speed transmissions and two speed dump truck rear ends?

Why did everyone in drag racing go in the opposite direction, with the revitalization of the powerglide, HIGHER stall speed converters and MORE RPM?
On a well developed engine you will have good ft/lb per cube numbers even if the engine operates well about peak tq, the better the average is a above peak then the better the shift recovery will be.

Trans and rear ends or a balance between weight, efficiency and ratio to keep it in the rpm range needed not to mention cost, most fast power adder drag cars make to much tq so more gear or gears do not help, prostock on the other hand are running 6 speeds now I believe and would run 7 if possible but they are operating well above peak and trying to target about a 1500 rpm curve so the engine doesn't bog.

The pro turbo diesel cars run more gears to keep the rpm down, maybe Linco's?

In most classes that allow turbo diesel there are competitive examples as well as dominant ones, in the Daytona 24 hour Proto Type Class I think it was Audi that dominated it a cpl years with one that was only turning around 4700 rpm if I recall, since then others have tryed.

There are not a lot of people in the industry with the knowledge or pocket book to pursue it.
The "Top Diesel" class at the NHRDA World Finals is the absolute fastest and most powerful diesel powered racecars on Earth! These guys show up prepared to never lift until they cross the finish line...typically at over 200MPH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbVUEn_mHc
Mazda's SKYACTIV Technology helped its all-new Clean Diesel-powered sports racing prototype go wheel-to-wheel with some of the world's fastest sports cars at Daytona International Speedway, as they tackled the grueling demands of the 52nd Rolex 24 at Daytona. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NylmcEoFtos
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by Frankshaft » Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 am

GARY C wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:36 am
86_regal wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:29 pm
I just don't understand why the "more torque" or "peak torque" rhetoric persists when talking about drag racing...?

If torque BY ITSELF were so important, why isn't every track and sanctioned race class in the country FLOODED with cars with Cats, Cummins & Detroit diesels with 1000lb 16 speed transmissions and two speed dump truck rear ends?

Why did everyone in drag racing go in the opposite direction, with the revitalization of the powerglide, HIGHER stall speed converters and MORE RPM?
On a well developed engine you will have good ft/lb per cube numbers even if the engine operates well about peak tq, the better the average is a above peak then the better the shift recovery will be.

Trans and rear ends or a balance between weight, efficiency and ratio to keep it in the rpm range needed not to mention cost, most fast power adder drag cars make to much tq so more gear or gears do not help, prostock on the other hand are running 6 speeds now I believe and would run 7 if possible but they are operating well above peak and trying to target about a 1500 rpm curve so the engine doesn't bog.

The pro turbo diesel cars run more gears to keep the rpm down, maybe Linco's?

In most classes that allow turbo diesel there are competitive examples as well as dominant ones, in the Daytona 24 hour Proto Type Class I think it was Audi that dominated it a cpl years with one that was only turning around 4700 rpm if I recall, since then others have tryed.

There are not a lot of people in the industry with the knowledge or pocket book to pursue it.
The "Top Diesel" class at the NHRDA World Finals is the absolute fastest and most powerful diesel powered racecars on Earth! These guys show up prepared to never lift until they cross the finish line...typically at over 200MPH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbVUEn_mHc
Mazda's SKYACTIV Technology helped its all-new Clean Diesel-powered sports racing prototype go wheel-to-wheel with some of the world's fastest sports cars at Daytona International Speedway, as they tackled the grueling demands of the 52nd Rolex 24 at Daytona. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NylmcEoFtos
Nice post. I will say though, the fastest accelerating diesel door slammer, that runs either low 7's or may have squeaked a 6.9 something, with a Duramax, spins up there, 7000 ish. The Daytona 24 example, what a great idea though, keep rpm to 4700, the thing would go for 3 weeks straight probably. That deal its about consistent and steady. Not being the fastest.

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by Frankshaft » Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:29 pm

Frankshaft wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 am
GARY C wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:36 am
86_regal wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 2:29 pm
I just don't understand why the "more torque" or "peak torque" rhetoric persists when talking about drag racing...?

If torque BY ITSELF were so important, why isn't every track and sanctioned race class in the country FLOODED with cars with Cats, Cummins & Detroit diesels with 1000lb 16 speed transmissions and two speed dump truck rear ends?

Why did everyone in drag racing go in the opposite direction, with the revitalization of the powerglide, HIGHER stall speed converters and MORE RPM?
On a well developed engine you will have good ft/lb per cube numbers even if the engine operates well about peak tq, the better the average is a above peak then the better the shift recovery will be.

Trans and rear ends or a balance between weight, efficiency and ratio to keep it in the rpm range needed not to mention cost, most fast power adder drag cars make to much tq so more gear or gears do not help, prostock on the other hand are running 6 speeds now I believe and would run 7 if possible but they are operating well above peak and trying to target about a 1500 rpm curve so the engine doesn't bog.

The pro turbo diesel cars run more gears to keep the rpm down, maybe Linco's?

In most classes that allow turbo diesel there are competitive examples as well as dominant ones, in the Daytona 24 hour Proto Type Class I think it was Audi that dominated it a cpl years with one that was only turning around 4700 rpm if I recall, since then others have tryed.

There are not a lot of people in the industry with the knowledge or pocket book to pursue it.
The "Top Diesel" class at the NHRDA World Finals is the absolute fastest and most powerful diesel powered racecars on Earth! These guys show up prepared to never lift until they cross the finish line...typically at over 200MPH. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygbVUEn_mHc
Mazda's SKYACTIV Technology helped its all-new Clean Diesel-powered sports racing prototype go wheel-to-wheel with some of the world's fastest sports cars at Daytona International Speedway, as they tackled the grueling demands of the 52nd Rolex 24 at Daytona. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NylmcEoFtos
Nice post. I will say though, the fastest accelerating diesel door slammer, that runs either low 7's or may have squeaked a 6.9 something, with a Duramax, spins up there, 7000 ish. The Daytona 24 example, what a great idea though, keep rpm to 4700, the thing would go for 3 weeks straight probably. That deal its about consistent and steady. Not being the fastest.
I just looked, the Audi R10 tdi is a 336 inch v12. It makes 650hp at 5000. So, I would imagine they were likely seeing 6000 ish on the long straights. 2000 pounds ready to race with driver.

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by GARY C » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:07 pm

Frankshaft wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 12:29 pm
Frankshaft wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:34 am
GARY C wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:36 am


On a well developed engine you will have good ft/lb per cube numbers even if the engine operates well about peak tq, the better the average is a above peak then the better the shift recovery will be.

Trans and rear ends or a balance between weight, efficiency and ratio to keep it in the rpm range needed not to mention cost, most fast power adder drag cars make to much tq so more gear or gears do not help, prostock on the other hand are running 6 speeds now I believe and would run 7 if possible but they are operating well above peak and trying to target about a 1500 rpm curve so the engine doesn't bog.

The pro turbo diesel cars run more gears to keep the rpm down, maybe Linco's?

In most classes that allow turbo diesel there are competitive examples as well as dominant ones, in the Daytona 24 hour Proto Type Class I think it was Audi that dominated it a cpl years with one that was only turning around 4700 rpm if I recall, since then others have tryed.

There are not a lot of people in the industry with the knowledge or pocket book to pursue it.



Nice post. I will say though, the fastest accelerating diesel door slammer, that runs either low 7's or may have squeaked a 6.9 something, with a Duramax, spins up there, 7000 ish. The Daytona 24 example, what a great idea though, keep rpm to 4700, the thing would go for 3 weeks straight probably. That deal its about consistent and steady. Not being the fastest.
I just looked, the Audi R10 tdi is a 336 inch v12. It makes 650hp at 5000. So, I would imagine they were likely seeing 6000 ish on the long straights. 2000 pounds ready to race with driver.
Drive train durability seems to be the hurdle for turbo diesel but considering the small amount of race R&D in the last ten years only time will tell if they find the magic combo but the two diesel cars were the fastest, I haven't followed any of it to know where they are now.
In 2004, a Lola equipped with a Caterpillar re-badged V10 TDI ran for a few hours before breaking its clutch.
On 18 March 2006, the #2 Audi R10 won the 54th annual 12 Hours of Sebring after earning pole position by setting a qualifying record.
On 18 June 2006, the #8 Audi R10 placed first at the 2006 24 Hours of Le Mans, completing 380 laps, more than the R8 did, but less than the record set in 1971. The #7 Audi R10, which set fastest lap times in practice and race, came in third after suffering injector pump damage, completing 367 laps.

Here is the Audi info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10_TDI
In car vid it looks like shifts are in the 6000's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVIqAuymkU0

On the 3rd of June 2007, Peugeot managed to best the Audi R10 TDI diesel, setting a Le Mans test day lap time of 3:26.707. This was followed by Peugeot earning pole position in Le Mans qualifying with a 3:26.344 set by Stéphane Sarrazin, again beating Audi - although it is believed Audi did not go as fast as they could, unlike Peugeot. In the race, where the cars competed directly for the first time, the Audi R10s were obviously faster than the Peugeots on the straights and much more stable in the corners

Here is the Peugeot 908 HDi FAP https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_908_HDi_FAP
In car https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO6tRAigC3M
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THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by AMXstocker1 » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:26 pm

Talk about off topic

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by GARY C » Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:06 pm

AMXstocker1 wrote:
Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:26 pm
Talk about off topic
Sorry, I tend to ramble... On your application in theory you should be looking at 700ish horse power and 5.90's 1/8th mile if the combo is sorted out.
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THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by amc fan » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:38 pm

Domed piston? How much timing? Detonation will push the gasket out!

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by AMXstocker1 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:04 am

Yes domed pistons and 37 degrees timing locked distributor with a crank trigger the spark plugs and pistons dont show signs of detonation.

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Re: not guess the hp but guess the ET??

Post by 289nate » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:24 am

I wouldn't worry about excessive exhaust duration just yet. The less lift on the exhaust makes sense and the split in duration makes sense compared to what a few cam grinders are doing now. Opening and closing events are important to pull it off. I'd sort it out before changing a thing.

Why would I be working on a "gas" engine for the strip when I could just build my Duramax hauler? Turbo on methonal? Top fuel on nitro? The beauty of diesel in an endurance race is the ability to make the same power using less fuel. Not all out acceleration.

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