Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Moderator: Team
- Dave Koehler
- Vendor
- Posts: 7207
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
- Location: Urbana, IL USA
- Contact:
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
groberts,
You assume there was an error by a shop of .0015.
If the poster can't write it down correctly it brings in doubt of how it was measured, what with, calibration and the temperature difference.
If it was written correctly then it is much ado about nothing.
John@RED, want to follow up on this so this can be put to bed before it gets more out of hand?
You assume there was an error by a shop of .0015.
If the poster can't write it down correctly it brings in doubt of how it was measured, what with, calibration and the temperature difference.
If it was written correctly then it is much ado about nothing.
John@RED, want to follow up on this so this can be put to bed before it gets more out of hand?
Last edited by Dave Koehler on Mon May 07, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Enderle Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."
Enderle Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."
-
- Guru
- Posts: 6387
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am
- Location: Roseville, Michigan (just north of Detroit)
- Contact:
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
I hope this is a misprint or a typo ... a tenth and a half thou over ...?
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Specialty engine building at its finest.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1980
- Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:08 pm
- Location: Minneapolis
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
As others have also eluded to.. just seemed like a logical assumption since I know of no "engine machine shop" short of maybe an areospace manufacturing facility that could even measure such an infinitesimal number. As also mentioned it would probably need to be measured inside a highly temperature controlled sealed chamber to even come close to that resolution. Not sure.. maybe even a laser based measuring system of some sort?Dave Koehler wrote: ↑Mon May 07, 2018 10:18 am groberts,
You assume there was an error by a shop of .0015.
If the poster can't write it down correctly it brings in doubt of how it was measured, what with, calibration and the temperature difference.
Probably much ado about nothing.
John@RED, want to follow up on this so this can be put to bed before it gets more out of hand?
My apologies if I seemed to say that anyone posting early on was inept in any way shape or form. Was not my intention in the least since guys like you do this stuff for a living and I do it out of a garage based workshop while hanging on longer coattails just to figure it all out.
Greg
-
- Guru
- Posts: 3285
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:46 pm
- Location: NC
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Air gauge......
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1029
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:55 pm
- Location: Anaheim, CA
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
I suggest measuring the piston diameters for variance and placing them to your advantage. I'm sure there is some variance in diameter among them.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 8707
- Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:16 pm
- Location: Victoria BC Canada
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Before I got bent out of shape about a measurement between your measuring instruments and the shops tools I would do a direct comparison at the same temperature.
I have run into this same issue a few times over the years where a DIY'r that has basic measuring tools tells me to make it a specific number only to find out he has a bore gauge that does not read in 10th's but is guessing as he has a gauge that reads in 1/2's and imagines the between numbers. While it can be close its not perfect.
Not if you have a gauge that reads 10th's as does the shop then calibrate your tool and go back and recheck it.
You may find it may be dead on or not as bad as you think it is. Or it can be worse.
But I would not get to upset at .0005" over what you asked for but more then that I would not accept if you are both working with similar tooling and temp in both shops.
I like to take critical measurements in the morning so the heat of the day does not influence sizing as much before the shop gets heated as well as everything else in the shop.
I have run into this same issue a few times over the years where a DIY'r that has basic measuring tools tells me to make it a specific number only to find out he has a bore gauge that does not read in 10th's but is guessing as he has a gauge that reads in 1/2's and imagines the between numbers. While it can be close its not perfect.
Not if you have a gauge that reads 10th's as does the shop then calibrate your tool and go back and recheck it.
You may find it may be dead on or not as bad as you think it is. Or it can be worse.
But I would not get to upset at .0005" over what you asked for but more then that I would not accept if you are both working with similar tooling and temp in both shops.
I like to take critical measurements in the morning so the heat of the day does not influence sizing as much before the shop gets heated as well as everything else in the shop.
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
I took the OP's post as total sarcasm, to bait and spool up the membership. May have worked.
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Ah ah, sorry guys for the zero more there....
I obviously was talking about .0008 - .0015 more than what I asked.
I know it could seem not to be a lot, but in this little engine suggested piston to wall is .0032, so .0015 is about a 50% too much.
As someone wrote in the first page, I was just told by them that heated by the coolant during machining the clearance was ok, and they too see that back to ambient temp the clearance was the same i got:
I know that this may happen in some blocks, but thought .0015 to be too much
-
- Guru
- Posts: 8707
- Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 1:16 pm
- Location: Victoria BC Canada
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Well that said more details regarding what engine it is and it's intended usage as well as piston type etc would go along way to getting any help that would be useful in your case.
The omission of the details of it being hot honed changes everything.
That said if you can post what pistons etc. guys that have done similar builds can ad info more helpful.
But if you are checking a block that was hot honed it will change a good amount from heated state to cooled off and the bores in some cases will show up funny sizes at different points in the bore top to bottom.
The omission of the details of it being hot honed changes everything.
That said if you can post what pistons etc. guys that have done similar builds can ad info more helpful.
But if you are checking a block that was hot honed it will change a good amount from heated state to cooled off and the bores in some cases will show up funny sizes at different points in the bore top to bottom.
Real Race Cars Don't Have Doors
-
- Guru
- Posts: 1264
- Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:15 am
- Location: Gold Canyon, AZ
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
As has been pointed out already in previous posts, the difference between the OP's measurements and the machine shop measurements could very well be attributed to temperature differentials and measuring tool calibration. Personally, I would be more confident in the measurements at the machine shop . . . . . . but, that's just me.
Bill
Perfect Circle Doctor of Motors certification
SAE Member (30 years)
ASE Master Certified Engine Machinist (+ two otherASE Master Certifications)
AERA Certified Professional Engine Machinist
Perfect Circle Doctor of Motors certification
SAE Member (30 years)
ASE Master Certified Engine Machinist (+ two otherASE Master Certifications)
AERA Certified Professional Engine Machinist
- Dave Koehler
- Vendor
- Posts: 7207
- Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
- Location: Urbana, IL USA
- Contact:
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
gasses,
Did you read the 3 posts above yours?
Did you read the 3 posts above yours?
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Enderle Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."
Enderle Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Just in case, you didn't mention....
Was a torque plate used?
Are the skirts coated?
And have you checked the actual clearance comparing skirts to block bore.... or just bore size?
Pistons are getting really good, but I still like to check each one just to be sure.
I;ll assume at worst there could be .0005 difference in measuring due to being a different hand using different measuring equipment, and on a "home gamer" level that could be twice as much. Nothing personal, but it would not be the first time at all.
If the cylinders were heated....they would be larger. They are blowing smoke. But did you buy that?
Was a torque plate used?
Are the skirts coated?
And have you checked the actual clearance comparing skirts to block bore.... or just bore size?
Pistons are getting really good, but I still like to check each one just to be sure.
I;ll assume at worst there could be .0005 difference in measuring due to being a different hand using different measuring equipment, and on a "home gamer" level that could be twice as much. Nothing personal, but it would not be the first time at all.
If the cylinders were heated....they would be larger. They are blowing smoke. But did you buy that?
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
sounds like they are bs'ng you..it would be the opposite of that happening. when it cooled down the bores would get smaller.John@RED wrote: ↑Mon May 07, 2018 3:09 pmAh ah, sorry guys for the zero more there....
I obviously was talking about .0008 - .0015 more than what I asked.
I know it could seem not to be a lot, but in this little engine suggested piston to wall is .0032, so .0015 is about a 50% too much.
As someone wrote in the first page, I was just told by them that heated by the coolant during machining the clearance was ok, and they too see that back to ambient temp the clearance was the same i got:
I know that this may happen in some blocks, but thought .0015 to be too much
being too aggressive with stone load etc can overheat everything and give a false plus reading when checking compared to room temp.
some piston skirt coatings can add what you need.
Re: Engine machine shop destroyed my block
Line2line was my choice for same...
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.
Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.
Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.