1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by maxracesoftware » Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:28 pm

This! At the top end, the drag force per HP has a rapidly growing effect.
Yes , Aerodynamics Losses are growing at a Cubed Rate !
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by Stan Weiss » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:13 am

Larry,
I do not know if you ever ran any simulations on the data that George said that I could share with you? I used .52 and 5.5 which is 2.86 and for my simulations that seemed to work out very well against his actual run numbers.

Stan
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by maxracesoftware » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:42 pm

Stan Weiss wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:13 am
Larry,
I do not know if you ever ran any simulations on the data that George said that I could share with you? I used .52 and 5.5 which is 2.86 and for my simulations that seemed to work out very well against his actual run numbers.

Stan
i never ran a Quarter Mile simulation on George's ProBike ... i just ran/checked his posted Engine Data in v4.00 PipeMax to see correlations
... at least i cannot remember doing a 1320 ft analysis of each foot distance
i might have done a quick sim of just 60,330,660,1000,1320...no real in-depth study

i probably have George Bryce/Angelle Sampy 's best Runs/incrementals logged
but if you like please post the incrementals , ( or any screenshots of your Sims on ProBikes , etc )
because i have that Data logged ... but no actual Team or Racer's name next to each Data Line
so it might take me hours researching to matchup Incrementals to actual Racer's name

How did Bryce/Sampy best 1320 FT MPH compare to similar 1320 FT ET from a ProStock 500cid V8 ?
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by maxracesoftware » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:55 pm

maxracesoftware wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:42 pm
Stan Weiss wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:13 am
Larry,
I do not know if you ever ran any simulations on the data that George said that I could share with you? I used .52 and 5.5 which is 2.86 and for my simulations that seemed to work out very well against his actual run numbers.

Stan
i never ran a Quarter Mile simulation on George's ProBike ... i just ran/checked his posted Engine Data in v4.00 PipeMax to see correlations
... at least i cannot remember doing a 1320 ft analysis of each foot distance
i might have done a quick sim of just 60,330,660,1000,1320...no real in-depth study

i probably have George Bryce/Angelle Sampy 's best Runs/incrementals logged
but if you like please post the incrementals , ( or any screenshots of your Sims on ProBikes , etc )
because i have that Data logged ... but no actual Team or Racer's name next to each Data Line
so it might take me hours researching to matchup Incrementals to actual Racer's name

How did Bryce/Sampy best 1320 FT MPH compare to similar 1320 FT ET from a ProStock 500cid V8 ?
Jerry Savoy's ProBike usually has the fastest 60 Feet times of all the Pro Bikes !!!
Jerry is big Alligator Farmer ... Wayne Segura and Sons Alligator Farm is probably one of Jerry''s Competitors
Wayne's Son lives just a block away across the highway from my Shop ... Seguras are relatives to my Family :)
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by Stan Weiss » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:45 pm

Larry,
This is something that I had exchanged with George
Hi George,
I ran a simulation based on one I had done back at the end of the 2013 season with some input from you. I added some traction and adjusted the weather / dyno correction factor.

60 Foot ET = 1.0461
330 Foot ET = 2.8086
1/8 Mile ET = 4.3022
1/8 Mile MPH = 164.0001
1000 Foot ET = 5.6116
1/4 Mile ET = 6.7311
1/4 Mile MPH = 201.0191

With the pro stock cars my MPH is normally a little low while here it seems a little high.

For that run with a 1.040 60 foot time I get

60 Foot ET = 1.0400
330 Foot ET = 2.7989
1/8 Mile ET = 4.2917
1/8 Mile MPH = 164.0656
1000 Foot ET = 5.6008
1/4 Mile ET = 6.7201
1/4 Mile MPH = 201.0463

The only way I can get the MPH to come out the same is if I have the engine hit the rev limiter before the finish line.

Stan
---End Quote---
Me too LOL.
It has been a few years since I did this so I any not sure where all of the data is. If you need anything else ask and I will see if I can find it. I also may have to email it to you.
Thanks Stan for asking and keep it private.....i am okay with Larry....please ask him to keep it that way , thanks
Stan
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by maxracesoftware » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:07 pm

Stan , i found i had done a quick Calc ...here is results ( George said they were just under 400 HP @ 9600 RPM ?? )

6.7500 = 1/4 Mile ET in seconds
198.0300 = 1/4 Mile MPH
630.0 = RaceCar Total Weight with Driver in Lbs.
5.500 = Net Frontal Area in Sq.Ft using recommended SAE .85% Rule
0.520 = Drag Coefficient [ Cd ]
100.000 = Hood Scoop Ram-Air Efficiency %
97.500 = Drivetrain Efficiency %
96.000 = Traction Efficiency %
1500.0 = Density Altitude Feet
1.045108 = Weather HP Correction Factor Air Density PerCent % = 95.684

---- Various HP numbers as you cross 1320 Feet ----
222.5 = Drive-Tire HP at 1320 Feet distance
151.5 = Aerodynamic HP Loss at 1320 Feet distance
17.4 = Rolling Resistance HP Loss at 1320 Feet distance
18.5 = Ram Air HP gain at 1320 Feet distance

HP = 399.6 Engine Dyno Flywheel HP at 600 RPM/SEC acceleration test rate
( SAE J607 STP-MotorSports 85% Mech Eff%, 29.92 inHg., 60.0 degF, 0.0% RH )


291.7 = RollOut Distance Launch HP
2.809 = Maximum Launch GForce 1769.6 = Lbs-Ft Maximum Launch Force
Recommended Drive-Tire Width = 9.8 to 12.7 Inches maximum width

---- 1/4 Mile Incrementals ----
- 0.1488 = RollOut ET in Seconds 9.1665 =RollOut MPH (at 12 inch Distance)
6.7500 = 1/4 Mile ET 198.0300 = MPH

the real incrementals for that 6.7500 ET - 198.03 MPH were :
1.068 2.825 4.318 164.11 5.625 6.750 198.03

NHRA 500cid ProStock Car nearly same 6.7500 ET Group :

Code: Select all

0.988 2.802 4.313 162.94 5.613 6.741 205.22
0.991 2.815 4.334 162.08 5.639 6.741 204.26
0.991 2.811 4.331 162.06 5.641 6.744 203.86
0.996 2.817 4.339 161.63 5.646 6.748 204.51

0.999 2.822 4.340 161.81 5.647 6.751 204.45
1.022 2.837 4.353 162.51 5.655 6.753 205.76
0.990 2.806 4.329 161.69 5.644 6.753 203.06
0.998 2.815 4.336 162.06 5.649 6.756 203.46
1.004 2.835 4.353 162.90 5.659 6.758 205.16
1.001 2.824 4.344 162.45 5.654 6.759 204.11 
0.999 2.822 4.340 161.81 5.647 6.751 204.45
so a 204.45 MPH minus 198.03 MPH = 6.42 MPH Loss for the ProBike 2 Cylinders -VS- 500cid V8 Cylinders
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by Stan Weiss » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:32 pm

Larry,
I did a little searching and found these which are the numbers from run which I based the first of the two simulations I posted on.

Air was fast. 75 degrees, 29.80 Baro, Tail wind

1.046
2.810
4.305
163.89
5.610
6.730
199.76

I do not know what the tail wind was. At that time my software did not include using wind or direct.

I also found I had this information if you want another run. Raw data from NHRA.

;
; Weather conditions: air temperature 73 degrees, relative humidity 47
; percent, barometer 29.92 inches, adjusted altitude 1,527 feet,
; track temperature 110 degrees.
;
; Michael Ray Runs 6.793/197.74 -- incremental times: 60ft-1.056 sec.,
; 330ft-2.832, 660ft-4.342/162.14 mph, 1,000ft-5.660.
;

Stan
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by maxracesoftware » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:38 pm

just a quick ETCalc Sim gets pretty close :
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by maxracesoftware » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:43 pm

.... and again .... even closer in this Sim :
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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by Wombat57 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:55 am

Long time lurker 1 st post. This (ST) is by far the best forum I’ve come across f outstanding technical info with ((usually) minimal drama. Larry - forgive me for picking nits but just checking my admittedly aging/ancient M.E. training - is aero prop to v^3 or aero v^2 x friction = v^3? Great info btw! Thx

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Re: 1320 Feet MPH Comparisons between V8, V6, S6, 4 Cylinders

Post by Brian P » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:22 pm

Aerodynamic drag force is velocity squared. Aerodynamic power is velocity cubed since power is force x velocity.

Friction/drag has multiple components, some have force independent of velocity, others have higher exponents.

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