Engine Masters 350 vs 351w shootout

[Geoff2]

As far as a Cleveland humiliating a Chevy....

Folks should try & find a copy of the Feb 1969 PHR. That was right at the height of the muscle car era.
PHR staff obtained showroom cars with all the popular small blocks, pulled the box stock engines & dynoed them to see if they actually made their advertised HP.

The Ford 351 came last.

Only one engine reached it's advertised number, & actually made 20 hp more! The 340 Mopar made 295 hp, 275 hp adv

Here are the others, all made less than advertised.
Olds 350 280, 325
Pontiac 350 255, 325
Chev 350 240, 300
Ford 351 210, 290

[ozyfordman]

Why not bush the lifters on the Windsor back to Chev size? Limiting rocker ratio seems a silly thing to do to achieve parity. Just run them as they were designed with the same top end parts. Silly test as manifold runner lengths, reciprocating mass, bearing size, rod ratio,deck
height are all different. Both good engines with the right parts. Neither will best a Cleveland with similar build. Just my opinion, but proven on street strip builds I have done. I have to admit my experience is all with ported iron heads, mostly 2Vs. Others might think differently. Any thoughts from other camps? I have always thought SBM were well engineered, especially 340. They are all old hat but still wonderful.

[Truckedup]

Interesting but it proves nothing..............Chevy guys will bitch saying the Ford had the advantage...Ford guys will bitch saying they should have used a Cleveland...

[Krooser]

I'm still comparing stainless steel salad bowls to find the best one for carb cfms....

[Frankshaft]

All those are anyhow, is nothing but an add. So, they advertised Afr, comp cams, holley, oh, and don't forget Scams oil.

[Bos's5.0]

Everybody and their brother knows Chevys are cheaper to build when you get into aftermarket parts.

This one kind off gets my goat.
One of my customers told me this in 2003 I proved it wrong then and that fact has not changed.
If you think this is true you need to find a new place to by your ford parts.
Yes I know there are companies out there that still hose the Ford guys big time. But there are those that won't!

I believe it's still true and without digging into your 2003 build (15 years ago by the way) then there is no way to tell just what you built.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31365235 ---FORD dart SHP $2099.54
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31162211 ---Chevy Dart SHP $1718.26

When it comes to heads they are sometimes very close in prices if not identical. But it depends on manufacturer. Plus there are far more choices available for the Chevy.
If you're using a bunch of factory junk you could probably do alright.

[Bos's5.0]

As far as a Cleveland humiliating a Chevy....

Folks should try & find a copy of the Feb 1969 PHR.

You want us to use a 50 year old magazine test as some sort of proof of anything?

I'm sure you've hung onto that PHR rag since it came out to reassure you're love of Chevy or Mopar wasn't misplaced. I have no doubt you threw it in the face of every Cleveland lover you could find.

[Frankshaft]

As far as a Cleveland humiliating a Chevy....

Folks should try & find a copy of the Feb 1969 PHR. That was right at the height of the muscle car era.
PHR staff obtained showroom cars with all the popular small blocks, pulled the box stock engines & dynoed them to see if they actually made their advertised HP.

The Ford 351 came last.

Only one engine reached it's advertised number, & actually made 20 hp more! The 340 Mopar made 295 hp, 275 hp adv

Here are the others, all made less than advertised.
Olds 350 280, 325
Pontiac 350 255, 325
Chev 350 240, 300
Ford 351 210, 290

Build 4 380ish inch engines from the 4 above. Use the best head that was installed by the factory, build max effort engines, it would be clevland ford by a BIG margin. There is no denying they are pretty cool. Its not very hard to make over 700hp using factory 4v clevveland heads made smaller. I have one project right now, 445 inches, factory closed chamber 4v heads, weiand tunnel ram, big solid roller, compression, methanol, vacc pump, good pan, etc etc, going into a modern, front engine nostalgic style dragster, the reason for the cast iron heads. It should make 780-800 without re inventing the wheel on the heads. Try that with ANY of the other brands factory cast iron heads.

[Bos's5.0]

All those are anyhow, is nothing but an add. So, they advertised Afr, comp cams, holley, oh, and don't forget Scams oil.

Yep and provided that content free of charge to us. Some people pay a little money to get the info early, but it does end up on youtube free of charge and we can then take away any info gained free of charge.
Perhaps you would be willing to cough up the money to test all these components and dyno time to give it away for free? Wouldn't want you to sell out and get any backing, though. We need to know these tests were pure and not skewed in favor or your backers.

[Carnut1]

The adhd version of this contest. 350 vs. 351w 1990. Chevy 093 swirl heads 1.94" / 1.5" stock vs. Ford E7 heads stock 1.78"/ 1.46" dyno them with similar components.
Have a head guy port out the 093's with 2.055"/ 1.6" combo and the E7's with 1.94"/ 1.6" combo and re dyno with similar hi po goodies. Battle of the boat anchor heads! Waste of time? Sure, but I would love it. Thanks, Charlie

[turdwilly]

Everybody and their brother knows Chevys are cheaper to build when you get into aftermarket parts.

This one kind off gets my goat.
One of my customers told me this in 2003 I proved it wrong then and that fact has not changed.
If you think this is true you need to find a new place to by your ford parts.
Yes I know there are companies out there that still hose the Ford guys big time. But there are those that won't!

I believe it's still true and without digging into your 2003 build (15 years ago by the way) then there is no way to tell just what you built.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31365235 ---FORD dart SHP $2099.54
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31162211 ---Chevy Dart SHP $1718.26

When it comes to heads they are sometimes very close in prices if not identical. But it depends on manufacturer. Plus there are far more choices available for the Chevy.
If you're using a bunch of factory junk you could probably do alright.

To further expound...

Intakes
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7581/overview/ ---Ford Rpm Air Gap $326.81
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7501/overview/ ---Chevy Rpm Air Gap $259.32

Stock stroke Scat forged rotating assembly (all other parameters input the same except for 3.48" stroke for Chevy & 3.50" stroke for Ford - i.e. forged flat top pistons, h-beam rods, 4340 crank, internal balance, etc, etc.)

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca- ... /overview/ ---Ford $2311.97
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca- ... /overview/ ---Chevy $2082.97



So difference in cost is about 18% on the blocks, about 21% on the intakes, 10% on rotating assemblies.

[Steve.k]

Id like to see a run off of the boat anchors 400ford, chevy, dodge, pontiac etc. That would be interesting. Even stick with stocker 2v ford head.

[Frankshaft]

All those are anyhow, is nothing but an add. So, they advertised Afr, comp cams, holley, oh, and don't forget Scams oil.

Yep and provided that content free of charge to us. Some people pay a little money to get the info early, but it does end up on youtube free of charge and we can then take away any info gained free of charge.
Perhaps you would be willing to cough up the money to test all these components and dyno time to give it away for free? Wouldn't want you to sell out and get any backing, though. We need to know these tests were pure and not skewed in favor or your backers.

Lol, yeah, they are doing it for free lol, NOT. Afr, Holley, comp cams, scams oil are paying for it, and them. Plus, why do you think people put stuff on YouTube? For fun? Some might, but this is to make MONEY. Look into how it works. It's a whole other world, that a lot of people don't understand. YouTube that is. There are thousands of people making hundreds of thousands a year doing YouTube videos, which is great for the viewer, it's free, other than what you pay for your phone and or internet. But rest assured, people are making lots of money. That's a fact.

[Frankshaft]

Id like to see a run off of the boat anchors 400ford, chevy, dodge, pontiac etc. That would be interesting. Even stick with stocker 2v ford head.

Using 2v heads would make it a little more fair, but still no contest. A set of basic 3514v heads, valve job, and a throat cut with zero porting will make over 600hp.

[Casper393W]

As far as a Cleveland humiliating a Chevy....

Folks should try & find a copy of the Feb 1969 PHR. That was right at the height of the muscle car era.
PHR staff obtained showroom cars with all the popular small blocks, pulled the box stock engines & dynoed them to see if they actually made their advertised HP.

The Ford 351 came last.

Only one engine reached it's advertised number, & actually made 20 hp more! The 340 Mopar made 295 hp, 275 hp adv

Here are the others, all made less than advertised.
Olds 350 280, 325
Pontiac 350 255, 325
Chev 350 240, 300
Ford 351 210, 290

I have that magazine at the house....

They compared the 351w not the Cleveland...