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GARY C wrote:Yes it does!Warp Speed wrote:Does it?!?GARY C wrote: That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?
Must be political, as they aren't any more expensive really.MadBill wrote:It does leave one wondering why. It's not like bushed rollers add significant cost to a maybe $5,000+ cam/lifter combo or have cataclysmic failure modes, or... Why would they need to mandate a better choice? e.g. "Minimum compression ratio: 11.6:1"
BTW, my original reference was not due to the fact that we run rollers and not the bushing because they are better, but that we don't run bushings, don't have problems, and thrash them far beyond what anyone here would ever do in a street car or bracket engine.GARY C wrote:That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?DaveMcLain wrote:Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.tjs44 wrote:OK,after 6 pages of this stuff,I talked to Danny at RCR,he said most cup teams run the Jesel lifter.So if you figure the engine is made to last 700 miles that is 2800 1/4 mile passes.This is the lifter they run and they are needle bearings.Tom
http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.p ... ers/keyway
I get that!Warp Speed wrote:BTW, my original reference was not due to the fact that we run rollers and not the bushing because they are better, but that we don't run bushings, don't have problems, and thrash them far beyond what anyone here would ever do in a street car or bracket engine.GARY C wrote:That kind of negates the "NASCAR runs Needles because they are better" argument doesn't it?DaveMcLain wrote:
Isn't it also true that NASCAR doesn't allow a bushing lifter to be used? Only the needle bearing type are legal.
I have one here that I took out if a BBF, isky EZ bushed SR and a Crow Cams camshaft. I'll dig it out later and send some pix.MadBill wrote:Although the numbers are relatively small compared to needle designs, there are many thousands of bushed lifters in service on the street and in race apps. Can anyone provide details/pix of roller failures of same?
All I can say is I have used many Jesel and Morel NASCAR takeoff/used key lifters with needle bearings and put them in drag racing engines running more compression and way higher RPM's with no failures.swampbuggy wrote:Warp speed----can you say that H.M.S. has NEVER had any roller lifter needle bearings fail ???
Has anyone else seen anything like I experienced on the rockers? It tells me something about bushings in a "splash" environment. Exact same LS rocker arms, one set with needle bearings and one set with bushings. Was the bushing fitment too tight? I don't know, not my engine...just an interesting observation.In-Tech wrote:Since I have no experience with bushed lifters, I asked a question in another thread regarding a rev kit and bushed lifters as to wear. No response.
The only thing I can offer is a LS test where we had stock needle fulcrum bearing rockers on the hyd roller engine and ran to 7100 rpm, then with no other changes, installed bushed rockers and the engine fell off like a stone at 6800 rpm. I have no idea what the clearances were in the rocker. I'm still not sold on anything bushed that isn't pressure fed and/or cyclic on pressure like a piston pin. JMO
If I'm not reading too much into the data, sounds like the roller seized due to flaked debris, causing the bushing to indent at the contact line due to lack of rotation? if so, this could perhaps be classed as a lifter issue but not a bushing failure.cjperformance wrote:...Look at the bushing, you can see a mark that goes from one side to the other, this is on the loaded part of the roller in line with a flattened skid on the outside of the wheel. Measures up at .0005" of a dip in the bush at that point...
Prior to pull apart, the roller wheel 'felt' smooth to turn, most of the time, then suddenly it would grip up then if turned further ir turned backward it would then free up and feel fine again, then occasionally grip up again. See the little flaw in the body im pointing the pick at, when I pulled the wheel out then started inspecting and noticed the flaw I touched it with the pick and a little flake of metal came out of there!
Fwiw all othe lifters were fine.
Wow. I've read everything I can find on Morel lifters (much of it on the Straub Technologies site) and can find nothing to suggest that, for example, their new super-premium Black Mamba bushed lifters are unsuitable for street use. Maybe Chris S. will weigh in re same...turdwilly wrote:I was absolutely convinced that the bushing lifters were the way to go on the street build I was doing, until I talked to a tech at Motorsports Unlimited. He said they are located about 3 miles from the Morel manufacturing facility, & that he would definitely not recommend bushing lifters in a street application, as he had personally seen several sets of street-use Morel bushing lifters come back seized.
yeah they are pretty neat huh?MadBill wrote:Ah, got it: the BM axle is a non-ferrous material, presumably with lubricative properties similar to that of typical bushings. The resulting larger bearing diameter, positive oil supply and hydrodynamic wedge would contribute to low friction and long life under a wide range of operating conditions.
