Race Engine Challenge

[DaveMcLain]

Here's what I'd do for rules...

Maximum of 10:1 static compression
Maximum of 410 cubic inches
Must use a factory crankshaft
Must use a factory production block with factory cam base circle and type (no retrofit or big base circle cams)
Must use a hydraulic cam with a maximum of .550" lift as measured at the valve (cam may be custom grind)
Must use factory production iron heads with any porting or valve sizing allowed
Must use a dual plane intake with the center divider (no RPM airgap, carb spacers allowed but no more than 1" and must be divided or 4-hole)
Maximum carburetor CFM of 750
Engine must produce a minimum of 12" of vacuum at 1000 rpm idle
Fuel used will be 91 octane

Engine will be run at part throttle and full throttle with scoring for both averaged together.

I'd have fun building something for such a class. That could just be me though.

A Ford Cleveland wins.

[Walter R. Malik]

I said this in the other section:

I think the scoring should be "the sum of AVERAGE torque and PEAK horsepower / cubic inches" from a chosen 3,000 RPM band because it makes that peak horsepower number relevant yet still requires a good developed torque average.

[brechlrl]

I would encourage the organizers to go back and review how the rules evolved during the time PHR ran the show..All of the same issues talked about here cropped up during those years.. No matter what rules are in place they will always favor one engine type/family/combination. When there was a spec fuel you had grenade engines that in some cases could not complete enough pulls to score before destruction. Then there was the dominance of the CHI headed Cleveland. A gap in the rules was exploited so that Mod Fords cleaned up... In every case the rule makers tried to address the previous year's dominant combo with mixed success. It is going to be real hard to come up with a rule package that makes a truly level playing field.

[Smoke ring]

Racing challenge site is not working for me.

Has there been clarification if the "goal of the contest" is to make the highest power possible out of a race engine and put up the largest of racing engine numbers out there for a given displacement or is the goal to put limits in areas and it be geared toward engine builder innovation and skill to work around the obstacles put in place?

[Paul Rig]

what about a ford 2.0L NA that pumps out 310+ hp @8300rpm and has usable power @4000rpm 13-1 cr ethanol/race fuel mix.
Winner winner chicken dinner?

[RDY4WAR]

Just as a goof, do bracket dyno pulls. Maximum of 500 hp and 500 tq peak. The engine to come closest on both averaged together without one of them going over wins. It's about the only way you'd have an even playing field.

[tt 383]

I would encourage the organizers to go back and review how the rules evolved during the time PHR ran the show..All of the same issues talked about here cropped up during those years.. No matter what rules are in place they will always favor one engine type/family/combination. When there was a spec fuel you had grenade engines that in some cases could not complete enough pulls to score before destruction. Then there was the dominance of the CHI headed Cleveland. A gap in the rules was exploited so that Mod Fords cleaned up... In every case the rule makers tried to address the previous year's dominant combo with mixed success. It is going to be real hard to come up with a rule package that makes a truly level playing field.

Just for my sake, could you be more exact on the "gap" that allowed the modulars to dominate?

[user-612937456]

If a certain manufacturer has an unfair advantage by design in there class. Don't hold them back just level the playing field by lessening restriction on other manufacturers. In the instance of a Cleveland head allow Dodge and Chevrolet to run more competitive cylinder heads

Other aspects to the rules first would be for safety and second rules should be just to limit money from the equation. In other words money is not what it takes to win the competition. The guy with the NASCAR budget has the same chance of winning as a machine shop that has for employees.

Still yet keep the rules simple enough so innovation and creativity has the liberty to play the winning part of the competition.

[liqu]

Hi, I would like to see a limit of 365 CI, production Iron heads for the engine (and class) intended, a limit on compression (10 1/2), flat tappet of any kind (Hyd, solids or mushroom), stock rockers, any cylinder head mods, any valve, any piston, any crank or rod combo, any intake, any cam drive. This could be divided into 3 classes, 1959 and earlier, 1960 to 1970, and 1971 and up.

PS let the sbc compete with the Y Block Fords year for year

Cliff

[plovett]

I like a simple average hp over the rpm range. Divide it by displacement if that is a variable. I think average hp is what really matters when accelerating a vehicle. Why make it more complicated than that? No need to muddy the waters with fancy overcomplicated formulas that try to tilt the result to one side or the other, for some purpose other than acceleration.

JMO,

paulie

[brechlrl]

Just for my sake, could you be more exact on the "gap" that allowed the modulars to dominate?

They did not ban OHC but set a lower size limit of 400 cubes which everybody thought would eliminate the Mod Fords.. Kaase found a way to get over 400 inches and killed the 2 valve motors.. Another team did likewise and they finished 1-2 IIRC

[AMXstocker1]

Here's what I'd do for rules...

Maximum of 10:1 static compression
Maximum of 410 cubic inches
Must use a factory crankshaft
Must use a factory production block with factory cam base circle and type (no retrofit or big base circle cams)
Must use a hydraulic cam with a maximum of .550" lift as measured at the valve (cam may be custom grind)
Must use factory production iron heads with any porting or valve sizing allowed
Must use a dual plane intake with the center divider (no RPM airgap, carb spacers allowed but no more than 1" and must be divided or 4-hole)
Maximum carburetor CFM of 750
Engine must produce a minimum of 12" of vacuum at 1000 rpm idle
Fuel used will be 91 octane

Engine will be run at part throttle and full throttle with scoring for both averaged together.

I'd have fun building something for such a class. That could just be me though.

The title says race engine, not moms grocery getter engine challenge

i'd say no cubic inch limit, definitely no compression limit, and i would allow any fuel even methanol since you did specify RACE ENGINE however in the score i'd find a way to deduct points for things like needs 15 dollar a gallon race gas and needs valve lash checked after every pass, and fresh oil every weekend kind of a operating expense score. and since it is a race engine challenge i'd move the rpm range up to say 4000-8000 and probably limit heads to commercially available factory port layout stuff no splayed valve small block chevy or ford heads, same on intakes commercially available cast intakes any and all porting should be allowed on heads and intake and any induction. except power adders unless you give them there own class.

[tt 383]

Just for my sake, could you be more exact on the "gap" that allowed the modulars to dominate?

They did not ban OHC but set a lower size limit of 400 cubes which everybody thought would eliminate the Mod Fords.. Kaase found a way to get over 400 inches and killed the 2 valve motors.. Another team did likewise and they finished 1-2 IIRC

Gotcha, and to anyone's knowledge who else has done a build like that for legit street or racing?

[brechlrl]

In the early days none of the competition engines were suitable for street or racing duty. High strung and fragile, built to make a few dyno passes and that's it. As time went on PHR addressed that in a couple ways. By dividing it into 2 classes, Pro and street, and by putting heavy restrictions on the parts that could be used in a class.. I know Barry R took one of his EMC motors off the contest dyno and dropped it into his street/Strip Torino where I think it still resides. I assume Jon's Mod engine got sold to someone and probably lives in a hot Mustang somewhere.
Unlimited fuel would escalate into madness in a hurry. Nitro, Toluene, and god knows what else. One of the reasons for one fuel supplier is to move the event along, changing fuel for every competitor and flushing the system would get to be a PITA and slow down the setup time

[nitro2]

I think average hp is what really matters when accelerating a vehicle.



paulie

It matters, but you can have two engines with the same average HP over the same rpm range and depending on the shape of the HP curve, one will accelerate the same car with the same gearing, quicker than the other.