for what it is worth, bushed vs needle roller lifters

[Belgian1979]

What kind of spring pressure is used for the rev kit portion ?

30/35# as a start and is plenty to do the job on a streeter to keep the wheel on the lobe for the saturday night cruisers! , more for heavier lifters/more agressive lobes, the most I have ever used is 55#

I'm note sure what the pressure was on my Crane kit with the valve closed, but I remember the pressure when the valve was closed was something like 100 lbs. It takes quite an effort to take them out.

[Belgian1979]

How much idle time & what would be the service interval?

Of course the top NASCAR series I mentioned doesn't have the low rpm or extended isle time some full street cars would see. But then again, most wouldn't run anywhere near the valve lift or acceleration the system sees in our application.

While we are on the subject of street duty, what is everyone's idea of idle and low speed rpm mentioned?
Are we talking about a 700rpm idle and 1200-1800 rpm cruise?

I run 1050-1100 always. Cruise is 2500-3000 rpm.

[Belgian1979]

Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.

[Belgian1979]

Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.

They will cost you some HP due to friction.

It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...

[user-17438]

So what lifters are Cup guys running?

Our shop used Crane in mid/late 90s early 2k, then Crower, for the Busch and Hooters Pro Cup, ARCA, Craftsman.etc Roller stuff.
late Sb2 and early R07 was Jesel keyways.. All of the rollers we used had needle bearings, rocker arms too.

The shop my buddy worked for Used morel and only morel. they were needle bearing as well.
I think brand may mostly be team or builder preference.

Rocker arms were the only things that would go on our stuff, mainly from spring pressure being lost. but that was yeeeears ago. Not because a needle bearing.

Needle bearings were used as am bearings.. no harm there either.

I think proper spring rate and lashing along with bore clearance makes a lifter last. Sure oiling does, but less than you would think. Saying you need to go bushing because everyone else does is bandwagon.. and like I had mentioned earlier, I have customers with thousands of miles per year on .8xx and higher lift cams, and 800-1100lbs open pressures on needle bearings. most use Crower. some have Herberts or Howards which are morel. but I never use Comp, its a personal preference not to.

If you plan on letting your lash get way out of whack go for the bushings, and keep an extra set of pushrods and rocker cups too.

[GARY C]

Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.

They will cost you some HP due to friction.

It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...

This is why your mains and rods are fed first in the oiling system, without a constant fed film of oil to ride one then it's just metal rubbing metal.
How long do you think mains and rods would last if they were fed at the end of the oiling cycle instead of first on cold start up?

[Caster67]

Is it true that a bushed solid roller makes the engine hard to turn while adjusting the valves. I read this somewhere and it made me think about the friction in these things.

They will cost you some HP due to friction.

What kind of HP difference are we talking about compared to a needle bearing lifter?

[cjperformance]

Hp difference would be interesting, someone must have done a 'needle v bushed' back to back. Only one ive had on the dyno before and after a needle to bush change also had a cam swap to a slightly more street friendly lobe, very close spec but still not worthy of an accurate back to back.

[j-c-c]

They will cost you some HP due to friction.

It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...

This is why your mains and rods are fed first in the oiling system, without a constant fed film of oil to ride one then it's just metal rubbing metal.
How long do you think mains and rods would last if they were fed at the end of the oiling cycle instead of first on cold start up?

With all the love affair with needles, and the downsides of bushings, but that then begs the question, why aren't needles used more ofte in main/rods if friction is such a negative?

The hand spin test for any kind of fair comparison, should be with a pressurized oil feed, IMO

[Jeff Lee]

Because...theoretically....there is no friction between rabbit bearings and rods or crankshaft.
Andy Grannetelli (sp?), way back in the 60’s I believe, spent big bucks on building an engine with needle bearings. Found out he spent a lot of money for no gains.

[Belgian1979]

In crank and rod bearings you also have to extract a lot of heat. Less so (in principle) for the lifters.

[j-c-c]

Because...theoretically....there is no friction between rabbit bearings and rods or crankshaft.
Andy Grannetelli (sp?), way back in the 60’s I believe, spent big bucks on building an engine with needle bearings. Found out he spent a lot of money for no gains.

I know that's the common thinking, but in the reply above, he mentions extracting a lot of heat, and heat comes from friction, so there seems to be mixed messages here, and if rabbit bearings can have "no friction" why can't oil fed bushed roller lifters?

[Belgian1979]

Because...theoretically....there is no friction between rabbit bearings and rods or crankshaft.
Andy Grannetelli (sp?), way back in the 60’s I believe, spent big bucks on building an engine with needle bearings. Found out he spent a lot of money for no gains.

I know that's the common thinking, but in the reply above, he mentions extracting a lot of heat, and heat comes from friction, so there seems to be mixed messages here, and if rabbit bearings can have "no friction" why can't oil fed bushed roller lifters?

Ahum, pistons, rods and eventually crank bearings are subjected to the heat of combustion in one way or another. This is far less the case with lifters.

[GARY C]

It's not the hp that I worry about, but friction usually means wear...

This is why your mains and rods are fed first in the oiling system, without a constant fed film of oil to ride one then it's just metal rubbing metal.
How long do you think mains and rods would last if they were fed at the end of the oiling cycle instead of first on cold start up?

With all the love affair with needles, and the downsides of bushings, but that then begs the question, why aren't needles used more ofte in main/rods if friction is such a negative?

The hand spin test for any kind of fair comparison, should be with a pressurized oil feed, IMO

Cost, space and needed oil supply.
"Many of these engines used roller bearing crankshafts, where either the main bearings, con rod bearings or both used rolling element rather than plain bearings; these days it is far more common to find four-stroke engines using plain bearing crankshafts. Two-stroke engines use roller bearing crankshafts owing to their need to lubricate the bottom end of the engine with a mixture of fuel and oil. Quite often with two-strokes, the big-end bearing runs directly on the crankpin, and the main bearings have a bearing inner race pressed onto the crankshaft.

That is not to say that, for four-stroke engines, roller bearing crankshafts slipped into the mists of time with the likes of the 50 cc twin-cylinder Honda, its bigger six-cylinder 250 cc cousin, or their contemporaries. Ducati has used roller bearing crankshafts on its Superbike engines for many years, right up until the recent release of the 1199 cc Panigale, which uses plain bearings.

There was also a brief flirtation with roller-bearing crankshafts in Formula One in the V10 era. The reason for this was the promise of lower friction, but while some people found this to be true, with significant reductions in friction, others found the gain to be negligible. According to one leading engineer, this variance was thought to be due to the differences in the amount of oil flow through the plain bearings that the roller bearing crankshaft was being compared to. As the roller bearing requires little oil to provide lubrication then some engines which, as a plain bearing engine, required lower flow rates would see less benefit compared to one which required higher flow rates."
https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/370 ... rankshafts

A roller cam bearing is considered an "upgrade".

[CharlieB53]

Harley has been using roller crank and rod bearings for a long time already. The Harley oiling system is low pressure and low volume.

It takes HP to move oil.

Selecting bearing sizes, fitting the correct bearing rollers is critical to achieving any type of longevity. Too loose and the rollers skate, too tight they bind at temp and flake and die an early death.

In a high volume production line it may be the excessive time required that prompts the bean counters decision to remain with babbit bearings.