408 SBF with AFR’s latest 220 cnc heads – what power?

[Tony Mamo]

Doesn't AFR recommend 4.125 bore for the 220 head since it has a pretty large valve that is at the stock location? (Unlike say a Highport or Z-head that moves the valves over to unshroud them on a smaller bore).

Would the 205 head be a better choice for a 87 octane pump gas?

Yes....but mostly due to the fact he is running a hyd roller which I suspect wont be very aggressive in lift.....not nearly enough to take advantage of the larger gains in airflow the 225's offer over the 205's at the higher lift points.

Running the smaller 205's will help port velocity and promote better part throttle response and tip in and a more crisp feel to the throttle helping to offset the lower static compression 87 octane will require.

My guess is with all the "talk of torque"....LOL, this is probably what the customer/end user is after.

There wont be much of a penalty in peak power comparing the 225 vs the 205 but the 205 will build more bottom and give the engine a more lively feel (better for a street effort than a strip effort).

If this were an SR build with better octane and more RPM (and most importantly a lot more cam lift to better utilize the higher lift flow advantage), the 225's would get the nod but I don't see that being the case here

Havent posted much on this board lately due to all the time Im having to invest getting Mamo Motorsports off the ground but I was linked to this thread by a certain member here and thought I would drop in and say hello and share my two cents on the subject.

David and I have spoken many times of course.....and Dave....if its not too late getting with AFR, consider the smaller head for this project. The smaller head might meet your performance objectives just fine and add a liveliness to the engine both you and the customer would enjoy!

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year everyone!

Regards,
Tony

PS....Im still going strong so if any of you need help regarding a project check out my website where you can access all my contact info at http://www.mamomotorsports.com
Its still work in progress and I need to update it badly but there is some cool stuff to look at and all my contact info is there

[427dart]

Mr. Vizard...What type cam will your build include? I have read your books over the years and you tend to get a lot of power and torque from somewhat mild engine specs.
While not a 408 my 427 build is based on the Dart block with TFS 225 High Port heads 10.3 compression and a mild 241/249 .600 lift hyd. roller cam which is a Lunati Voodoo grind. Very happy with it's performance over the last 5 years.

[David Vizard]

Mr Induction apprentice,

You response intrigued me to the point I had to stop work clearing up the flood in the shop and post a reply so here goes.

Q:- 'I have been reading your books since I was approximately age 10 to continue my personal learning curve. I'm age 47. With that said. (A) Respectfully. I feel I'm hardly qualified to comment on a question from the Vizard. '

A:- Since my initial post was largely questions to get a feel for what these heads will do or what is generally expected of them anyone with something to contribute is qualified to comment so thanks for taking the time to do so.


Q:- (B) I sense a second agenda lurking behind such a question from such an accomplished motor head?

A:- Absolutely right. I have already got my dyno results but before letting them out to the public I wanted to see what other builds of similar spec are achieving so I can see where they differ to mine.

But, alright I'll bite.

Your comment:- 'You made a point of 87 octane. But I'm going to make a leap, assuming water injection or octane booster is appropriate?'

A:- No H20 injection or octane booster. (will be testing one shortly that if it works as claimed will greatly reduce the need for race fuel)




You comment:- All tuning agent and dyno variables aside. I'm going to predict approximately 631 H.P. and 579 ft/lbs trq.

A:- Danm good guess. Will post dyno sheet after I have replied to the rest of the posts here.

DV

[David Vizard]

Tony,
Good to hear from you. I see you put some time into the reply so here is my response.

Yes....but mostly due to the fact he is running a hyd roller which I suspect wont be very aggressive in lift.....not nearly enough to take advantage of the larger gains in airflow the 225's offer over the 205's at the higher lift points.

A:- Rick wanted me to test the 220 cc heads not the 205's. I used COS-Cam to predict the cam events and lift required for this head and bottom end displacement. With the 0.700 lift called for and a 0.050 duration of 240 degrees a 408 was about the smallest displacement that these heads could be used on. (Rick was over the moon with the results so I concluded the build was a success)

Running the smaller 205's will help port velocity and promote better part throttle response and tip in and a more crisp feel to the throttle helping to offset the lower static compression 87 octane will require.

A:- Agreed, but I am running 10/1 plus with moves that make the engine less demanding of higher octane fuel. As you do Tony I think if I had run the 205's there may have been a small penalty in terms of peak power but nothing the driver would notice. On the other hand the low speed torque in the range that is too low for our dyno to pull down to could well have been up. Here 20 lbs-ft gain would not have surprised me any.

My guess is with all the "talk of torque"....LOL, this is probably what the customer/end user is after.

A:- The customer is always after more torque - it's more a case of many not knowing that the # 1 ingredient toward making hp is torque.

There wont be much of a penalty in peak power comparing the 225 vs the 205 but the 205 will build more bottom and give the engine a more lively feel (better for a street effort than a strip effort).

A:- Sure Will!!!

If this were an SR build with better octane and more RPM (and most importantly a lot more cam lift to better utilize the higher lift flow advantage), the 225's would get the nod but I don't see that being the case here

A:- We have covered that - this build is not quite what you thought it was.


Haven't posted much on this board lately due to all the time I'm having to invest getting Mamo Motorsports off the ground but I was linked to this thread by a certain member here and thought I would drop in and say hello and share my two cents on the subject.

A:- Tony, can't speak for others here but I always like your two cent comments as they always seem to be worth more like ten cents!

David and I have spoken many times of course.....and Dave....if its not too late getting with AFR, consider the smaller head for this project. The smaller head might meet your performance objectives just fine and add a liveliness to the engine both you and the customer would enjoy!

A:- If Rick at AFR wants to see a 205 build then count me as ready as I would fully expect to see outstanding results from a well speced engine. Look for the 408 dyno sheet to be posted soon.
Merry Xmas and Happy New Year everyone!

Regards,
Tony

PS....Im still going strong so if any of you need help regarding a project check out my website where you can access all my contact info at http://www.mamomotorsports.com
Its still work in progress and I need to update it badly but there is some cool stuff to look at and all my contact info is there

[David Vizard]

Mr. Vizard...What type cam will your build include? I have read your books over the years and you tend to get a lot of power and torque from somewhat mild engine specs.
While not a 408 my 427 build is based on the Dart block with TFS 225 High Port heads 10.3 compression and a mild 241/249 .600 lift hyd. roller cam which is a Lunati Voodoo grind. Very happy with it's performance over the last 5 years.

In this instance a hydraulic roller. Here is a point worth keeping in mind when selecting a cam " A long duration cam that opens and closes the valves at the wrong time will always make less torque then a shorter cam with valve event timing the engine wants. The shorter cam with the right event timing will often make more hp as well"

I am going to stick my head out here and make a bet now that if you went with a Lunati recommendation your cam is ground on the wrong LCA.

DV

[427dart]

Mr. Vizard...What type cam will your build include? I have read your books over the years and you tend to get a lot of power and torque from somewhat mild engine specs.
While not a 408 my 427 build is based on the Dart block with TFS 225 High Port heads 10.3 compression and a mild 241/249 .600 lift hyd. roller cam which is a Lunati Voodoo grind. Very happy with it's performance over the last 5 years.

In this instance a hydraulic roller. Here is a point worth keeping in mind when selecting a cam " A long duration cam that opens and closes the valves at the wrong time will always make less torque then a shorter cam with valve event timing the engine wants. The shorter cam with the right event timing will often make more hp as well"

I am going to stick my head out here and make a bet now that if you went with a Lunati recommendation your cam is ground on the wrong LCA.

DV

Yes you are probably correct on LSA. It was ground on a 112 where 108 may have been better? However I am running a power brake system...street car you know... and I do manage around 11-12 inch of vac. at a 950 RPM idle and the brakes work well.
Well even at that the thing at 3000 lbs. ran a 10.90 with crappy launch at 132 MPH with 3.50 gear. It is a manual tranny TKO-600 and with a drag radial not the best tire for serious drag racing. But at age 62...fun enough for me.
Anyway..can't wait to see the full results of your build!

[blykins]

Haven't done a 408, but did a 438....

*438 ci Windsor, 535 hp @ 5700, 561 lb-ft @ 4200. 4.125 x 4.100, Scat forged crankshaft, Scat I-beam rods, Diamond pistons, 10.25:1. Bullet hydraulic roller cam, 240/246 @ .050", 109 LSA, .586"/.592" lift, 105 ICL. AFR 220 cc heads, port matched RPM Air Gap intake, Quick Fuel 850 carburetor. Stuska dyno.

[427dart]

Now I like that with the RPM AG intake! Almost same specs as my build but with the Eddy Super Vic. and a 950 sized Holley.
I just wonder how the new PME dual quad intake I am setting up now will perform with the twin 600 Holley carbs.
One fellow here made around 600 HP with it on a 393W but with more cam duration 260 degree @.050 I believe.

[David Vizard]

OK here it is.

No fancy parts, no parts massaging, heads right out of box. No multiple cam testing - cam straight from COS-Cam computation. This was strictly a build it and calibrate the carb and ignition. Idles at 750-800 rpm and runs 87 Octane. This build is basically right off the drawing board. Concise details to allow its replication will be in the examples section of my new Ford book.

[David Vizard]

Forgot to mention that this engine is up for sale. Just to show that it's a budget build I will let it go for $8000. Go and check with
Terry Walters at TWPE phone #540-774-8605 http://www.waltersengines.com

I need the money to finance the endurance testing of the 289 SB Ford vintage race motor a small team and I are doing. We have the hp in spades to be competitive (dominant is probably more accurate) but success at making big power numbers has been our downfall as far as reliability goes. What with cracking blocks and heads (we have to use pre-68 stuff) it's close to a nightmare. Turns out it is no more expensive to go to VIR with my NASA car and run the heck out of it with an 8000 rpm rev limit. If it takes that for 500 miles then I am sure it will last OK at the 7000 rpm rev limit imposed. Also I can tell you it is far more fun ripping around a race track than running a bunch of oh-so-boring endurance tests on the dyno.

DV

[427dart]

Those are GREAT power numbers and for that price that is a deal! Maybe I missed it but did you mention what block you used?
Also on the dyno runs why was the A/F running at 10 to 1 and given the intake likes a cool mix at a 140 degree engine temp,does the engine function better at 165-180 degree water temp
What title of your new book should I be looking for?

[blykins]

Got another dyno close to you David?

[David Vizard]

Those are GREAT power numbers and for that price that is a deal! Maybe I missed it but did you mention what block you used?
Also on the dyno runs why was the A/F running at 10 to 1 and given the intake likes a cool mix at a 140 degree engine temp,does the engine function better at 165-180 degree water temp
What title of your new book should I be looking for?

The block was a sonic tested/selected early 351 block.

the dyno run shown here was done just after we had started to take the engine off the dyno. I beleive it was one last run with the collector 2 inches longer. the AF gear was not hooked up.

For a street motor where we are attempting to run the most CR for the least Octane the temperatures can get to be quite critical. I try to run max power orientated street motors burning pump gas at no more than 170 F. It is apparently not readily appreciated that for every 8 degrees F that the intake charge temp, as measured at a point about 4-5 inches from the intake valve, is reduced is equivalent to a boost of one octane number of the fuel.

If you are after torque this temperature deal becomes quite an issue. In my book I will be featuring mods to a stock style 5.0 Mustang EFI system where, after 3 back to back runs down the quarter, left the intake manifold at virtually ambient air temperature.

New book title -- not sure yet but it will be something like "how to build performance Windsor style small block Fords on a budget". The lowest buck build is about $200 or so for a 350 lbs-ft 290 horse motor.

DV

[David Vizard]

Got another dyno close to you David?

I estimate there is more than 50 dynos within 25 miles of my shop. Of those I am good friends with the owners of at least three. Sometimes I get the use of one of the cup car teams dyno's such as the super trick one at Joe Gibbs. However opportunities like this are rare.

Although Terry Walters dyno is some 220 miles from me Terry and his top guy Jack, have, over the years, become good friends and are really about as close as family without actually being so. Also they know their stuff.

Did that answer your question OK?
DV

[blykins]

Sure.

Would be interesting to try it on another dyno. Frankly, the numbers just seem really optimistic for a 408 inch engine, hydraulic roller, on 87 octane. I don't doubt for a second that the AFR heads aren't top notch (use them myself), but 1.5 hp/ci and 1.4 lb-ft/ci on an "off-the-shelf" build just seems odd to me.