What is the most effective windage tray for a SBC?

[rustbucket79]

This is a drag engine, Scat ultralight crank with the aero wing counterweights, 3.75 stroke. A crank scraper is sandwiched between the pan and block rail, and a oil pump baffle is installed between the pump and main cap. The oil pan is a 7 quart Moroso with only the front trap door.

What is the best windage tray to use?

GM Z/28 solid tray style?
Moroso flat with louvers?
Milodon diamond stripper?

[rustbucket79]

[randy331]

I'd be interested to know what others think about this, also????
Rustbucket79, I do think the trend is no tray if the pan has some size to it.
How big the pan needs to be to work better without a tray I don't know.

Thanks, Randy

[rustbucket79]

I'm suprised with all the knowledge on this board that someone isn't willing to share what works the best. Hasn't anyone done a back to back test on the dyno with the different trays?

[SilverFox]

There is only two reasons for not getting a respose on this board, the MOST COMMON is it is a subject that has been beaten to death already!

You are correct about the wealth of information out there, but keep in mind that means these guys have businesses to run, heads to port, and engines to build and PAYING CUSTOMERS to advise....They visit the board when they have a few minutes in between all that!!!

They are doing us a FAVOR by allowing us to access all their vast experiences and knowledge for FREE.......GIVE them a break and do like I do...Do a search on the topic BEFORE posting like I do......

There has been HUNDREDS of occasions where I wanted pro opinions, but only a few times that I have posted.....all the other times my question was answered by doing a search!

[Ed-vancedEngines]

ok.
When a reply is usually amde about this subject it gets conflicting responses.

We all prefer cerrtain things.

I prefer an internal windage tray built into the oil pan, which you get with the higher dollar welded aluminum oil pans. I am not big time on the Milodon Gold Diamond Scraper Windage Tray but some guys are. I kind of like the original GM Factory Windage Tray for the Corvettes,

With a stroker engine you get more limited in Windage Tray possibilities, because the Windage Tray must hang below everything rotating and clear it all and the commercial Windage Tray studs from ARP etc, just do not allow that much room.

I have read that Crankshaft Scrapers in connection with a good Windage Tray and a good well Baffled oil pan are worth some extra ponies. I personally do not like Crankshaft scrapers. I do not like placing a thin piece of sheet steel in a place where if anything were to go wrong it would end up adding to the problem. Likewise I do not like the thin sheet steel lifter valley covers that are sold too. I have used both, but just feel uneasy about them both. So now I do not use either and feel good.

I do like an oil pan that has a built in windage tray and the tray covers most of the oil. I also like the oil to be low enough in a pan so the crank doesn't hit it or splash it and the direct windage doesn't reach it either. I like the oil to be run lower in level but still sufficient capacity to take care of engine needs with an Accusump style back up lube system attached for safety.

Best bolt on Windage Tray design I have seen is Factory Mopar for their High Performance Engines. Any Windgae Tray beats no Windage Tray.

I have no dyno so can seldom if ever supply dyno results. When I dyno an engine it cost several hundrrd dollars beginning with $500.00 and up depending on what we are doing. So back to back testing of components is impossible for me to do.

A few of the guys here do have them, but must have not seen your post.

Ed

[machine shop tom]

I prefer the Z-28 tray.

tom

[shawn]

The most effective way is a big,wide,deep pan. Short of that, most of the the windage "trays" don't work. On a 400" dirt engine a "tray" on extended studs was a 8hp loss at 7000rpm. I just don't see how the oil coming off of the crank can do anything but bounce back up into it with a solid tray there. I do think a lip or something else at the back of the pan does help on acceleration. It keeps the oil from running up the back of the pan. I also think a lip on the pass. side of the pan helps. Trap doors and baffles to keep the oil around the pick up also help. I don't have enough experience with the "screen" type to give a pro or con to them, but a quick test could tell you. Take a hose and spray it from the engine side and from the pan side and see what it does. Does it allow water to pass? Does it bounce it back into the crank? Does it resists oil coming up from the pan side?
shawn

[cstraub]

Stef's stainless teflon coated screen. One of the team did a lot of testing back in the mid 90's and our screen was found to be the best and worth 5HP on a 358CID engine

[EngineTech1]

the best windage tray is no windage tray. Generally no benefit in these, more often a loss of power. A big pan with lots of space around the crank usually makes the most power.

[bigjoe1]

I have tested lots of pans on the dyno, but I do not know what happens in a drag car going down the drag strip.I do know that oil pans that have a kickout down the passenger side will show big HP gains on the dyno. The best tip I ever found is run the littlest amount of oil you engine can get by with. I have seen where just draining out three quarts of oil from a large boat pan picked up 35 HP atr 7000 RPM. By the way, almost all gains are at high RPM ( 7000 and up)On the dyno ,I have not seen any improvement untill at least 6500 RPM. On street engines I make, I use a larger sump type pan, and do not add any trays that dont come with the pan. This is for engines up to 550 HP. JOE SHERMAN RACING

[Cobra]

Designing an optimum oil pan/tray must include consideration of braking on the big end.
You must consider what happens during braking to protect your engine from potential damage. This includes the amount of oil you run.

[rustbucket79]

Silverfox, your post does nothing for my question other than to raise my blood pressure, thanks for that and feel free to NOT reply to any of my threads in the future. (I did search before starting the thead)

To Ed, Tom, and all the other people who were generous enough to take their time to respond to my query, I thank you.

I can see by the varied responses that there is no "set in stone" rule in regards to windage trays. I have run crank scrapers on a few of my engines through the years and they have come out of service in the same condition as they were installed. Did it benefit me, I don't know. I have used both the GM tray (on my last 408 with GM windage tray bolts) and the Moroso teflon flat louvered tray on my current 406, but it required some creative tweaks to clear the rod bolts. I'm not too keen to put it back in because it is so close to the rotating assembly. I do run the rear pan baffle to control the oil slosh on launch, but am now undecided as ever on what to reinstall, if anything. Unfortunately, because my car has a rather large crossmember I am limited to what fits, and if down the road I replace my current pan I will look into one of the "power kickout" pans with all the built in baffling and the required notching of the car's cross member.
It's interesting to hear that power gains (or more correctly, reduced parasitic loss) are most prevalent above 7000 RPM. My engine see's no more than 6800 during a pass.
I run the oil level to the "ADD" line on a matched GM gauge and tube assembly, which works out to 6 litres total for the system. Oil pressure is great during the pass, but falls off to maybe 10 PSI until I get back on the throttle just before the turn off. I can only assume that the cause of this is the Moroso pickup is directly below the pump and the oil is stacked against the front of the sump. The bearings after the season looked no worse for wear and will be reused this year.
As for what I plan to do about the windage tray, Hmm just not certain.
Thanks again for the responses,
Doug

[randy331]

Rustbucket79; Looks like a few different opinions on trays and oil pans.
It may well depend on the combination of pan, scraper etc. I do believe there is some power in windage work.

Years ago when I was young and had more time than money,(I'm still short on both) I built an oil pan for a 355 sbc. I used a stock pan, bolted it onto a short block and cut the whole bottom out of the pan. I then bent the passengers side above the rail in and created a scraper out of it. I took another stock pan and some other sheet metal to make a large kickout stepped around the starter, and made a windage tray that was circular around the crank and cut slots in the tray and bent the edges up to catch oil spinning around the tray. the circular tray went in under the scraper on the passengers side. The pan was approx. an inch deeper than stock, It showed a quart and a half low on a stock dipstick with five quarts. I lowered the pickup tube the right amount. I ran that engine with that pan on it for years. The test came when I sold that engine in a diff. car turn key. When I made the pan I got in a hurry to finish welding and got the pan warped at the front of the pan rail requiring a good amount of silicone to seal it to the engine. And it wasn't very pretty!! It developed a leak a year later and the new owner took my (MASTERPIECE) off and put a stock pan on it. The car never E.T.ed quite as good. I don't have specifics on air densities to compare back to back, However it never repeated the best E.T. It ran before the pan switch. And he consistently ran about a tenth slower.
This was on a 7000 rpm. max engine. The crank had not been knife edged and may make windage reductions more significant.???
Windage to me is still interesting and a gray area.
Sorry about the rambling on and on but I thought you may be interested in this.

Thanks; Randy

[Wolfplace]

Just to add a bit more as I wanted to wait until today to answer.
Although this is a BB I think it is relevant.

I just took a 540 off the dyno.
It is a 7000RPM street engine
With a supposedly well designed "entry level" pan with a screen & scraper it had a small problem
At about 55-5800 oil pressure started backing up big time
It was 30 LBS down from 70 by 6500 where I aborted the test.
Added one quart over what was recommended
Same deal except is lost over 10HP & was worse

Drained 2 quarts same deal only it picked up almost 20HP
Pulled the pan, added studs & the Moroso windage tray that looks like a stock GM type.
More HP by a few, started at 75lbs & was 70 at 7000
Opinion is the windage was blowing the oil out of the sump at RPM
This was obviously not a drainage issue as seen by the worsening problem by adding oil.

I would suggest at the least a tray of some sort to keep windage out of the sump

I do not agree that this type of tray is going to cause return issues at all

On another personal note & just for a bit of venting so I will feel better,,,
I have no idea why a well known & reputable pan manufacturer sells a friggin pan without including a tray knowing this can be an issue

But I can say they are not alone.....