Considering starting shop What machines to start with??

[mikes]

Here's my heart told story..LOL I've been on here for some time asking questions that might seem pretty silly to some due to my limited "toy budget". Always trying to do more with less was my motto. As some of you may know, I buy used to keep cost down so I can still afford to enjoy this sport with my son as well as for my own pleasure. With that being said, I have been burned recently with a slew of bad parts. The chance you take I guess. What I do know, Is I have a passion for automotive machining that I cant seem to get rid of. I've previously been a machinist for a total of 10 working years but had to leave that career due to limited income as a employee (25-35k a year average). Now I might not know every aspect of engine building and proper parts selection but I love the machining side and feel I'm pretty good or at least was when doing it years ago. Today, I have a good reputation for being honest, hard working, fair priced and a sales approach that people seem to relate to. I simply try to treat people the way I would like to be treated. lately I've been seeing and hearing of a severe lack in quality workmanship,turnaround time and price fluctuation and its driving me nuts. I would really like to start a small shop and need advice on what to start with. Ive used fairly up to date machines (vb160, cv616,serdi millennium etc)and not sure I could start with a boring bar and stones for a valve job per say considering what I've used in the past(not that I would consider stones actually What Id like to know, is by todays standards, where to start or even if its a good idea to start something like this. Im not rich by any means but do have a small and I mean small 401k to use If it will get me started. It humbles me to write this, almost embarrassing to be honest but It's what I love and have always loved to do. Thanks in advance for the advice and if you need more info, please feel free to contact me via pm. I could send you my email or even phone number if required.

[rustbucket79]

With the fluctuation in the economy and the engine rebuild business as it applies to daily driver cars more or less non existant, I think you would have an equal chance of success to take your 401K to Vegas and put it on "black" as you would buying the equipment and starting a new machine shop venture.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

I would suggest buying a general purpose CNC milling machine so that you can manufacture a product or do a wide variety of work not just engine stuff.
From a business perspective, today, opening an engine machine shop is like opening a typewriter repair shop.

[PackardV8]

The good news is used machines are dirt cheap today, so might as well go broke doing something you enjoy.

If I were doing it, heads are where the money is. Concentrate on the lunatic fringe stuff which can't be bought off the shelf. (Just don't go into the Studebaker-Packard V8 heads ;>)

jack vines

[MotionMachine]

I agree that starting a shop today with limited funds will get you limited return on your investment. Concentrate on what is lacking in your area (balancing, good quality resurfacing, etc) and start there. Usually it's crank grinding that is everyones gripe but it doesn't sound like you have the funds for that. If we had a $ number we could probably advise better. You didn't specify what kind of engines you want to work on, race only or what. Tough to crack into the performance market with limited funds. I agree that the OE market is falling off. Lack of qualified techs and internal parts too expensive I think is the reason. There are lots of older shops going out these days but I would hesitate buying their old worn out junk. Buy fewer higher quality machines. You have the time to look and you can find good bargains if you look hard enough.

[Dave Koehler]

This may seem backwards but you need and will use these more than you think.
Most eventually find that they are near the top of the profit center list.
10x54 vertical mill
14 or 15x40 lathe
Tig welder 250 amp or larger
Sunnen bore gauges
Mitutoyo or some other quality brand of Micrometers.
Quickbooks
AERA membership

Then start buying auto specific machines......very carefully.
Find a niche that needs filled in your area as your primary focus. Things no one can do or don't want to do. It's tough and expensive to be all things to all people.

[mikes]

Thanks for the replies! Im really looking into the performance/racing side of it. I enjoy that way more and is what Ive done most of when working in the shop. It is a tough market especially with limited funds. The good/decent machines are very expensive. If there were a better shop local Id try to get a job there part time or even full time if the money was right. Maybe I can find an investor? LOL Im good friends with a guy that owns a fabrication/chassis/restoration shop and he keeps asking me to come up with some idea to keep it all under one roof. Keep the thoughts coming!!

[nickmckinney]

The good news is used machines are dirt cheap today, so might as well go broke doing something you enjoy.

If I were doing it, heads are where the money is. Concentrate on the lunatic fringe stuff which can't be bought off the shelf. (Just don't go into the Studebaker-Packard V8 heads ;>)

jack vines

Agreed, its tougher making money these days no matter what you are doing IMHO, I have heard the same industry crash in plenty other places not just auto machine. I agree in that the heads is where the money is at, machine wise for heads only starting out I would look for:

Jet wash
Parts tumbler
TCM 25 with the airlock table
Sioux stone set
Comec 900 CBN/PCD
Bridgeport sized mill
13x40 lathe
Welder for aluminum
Valve refacer
Pressure tester
Blast cabinet

All of the above save for the welder I would buy used, figure its about 30-50K total by the time you cover all the little BS tooling. The above names I mentioned (TCM, Sioux, Comec) are the best bang for the buck I see out there right now. IMHO farm out the shortblock work until you really get into it as its a big investment machine wise for the amount of shortblocks you will be able to get out the door just as a one or two man shop.

BTW - Biggest mistake I see people making is they don't consider how much time is spent away from the machines dealing with customers, ordering parts, paperwork, etc. If you can't get a solid 4-5hrs per day on the machines/actually working on something/etc. you will go broke with a quickness.

[Belgian1979]

Just to add to this : I saw a kwik way boring bar for sale the other day for € 2000. Just the bar, no table.

Seen the lack of people to do quality work on American V8 for the restorations/racing here, that might be interesting. However I would rather buy a good sunnen bore hone and a couple of torque plates first if it were me.

Then maybe a line boring/honing machine.

[SchmidtMotorWorks]

Just to add to this : I saw a kwik way boring bar for sale the other day for € 2000. Just the bar, no table.

Seen the lack of people to do quality work on American V8 for the restorations/racing here, that might be interesting. However I would rather buy a good sunnen bore hone and a couple of torque plates first if it were me.

Then maybe a line boring/honing machine.

Is it possible to actually enjoy honing a block?

[nickmckinney]

Is it possible to actually enjoy honing a block?

I have found most shop guys either like to do shortblocks only or heads only but rarely like to do both.

[ProPower engines]

Just as a minimum you will need a decent seat and guide machine. Do not look at a serdi. They are expensive are hard to find in decent shape. and tooling is also costly Look at a DCM tech or a sunnen VGS 20 they offer the best versatility and tooling can be had very reasonable and any machines out there most come with basic tooling again there are others that will also work but take a bit more time for the finished product
A decent surfacing machine that can handle heads and blocks a dry machine is preferred some have been converted from wet stones to CBN so do your home work when looking at these
A CK10 or CV616 hone will do lots of cylinder work a beginner would ever need to do
A good jet washer is a must
A rod hone of some sort is a good thing for a multitude of jobs
A balancer can be used for other things other then cranks.
Check with the equipment dealers as you may be able to get a package deal on the basic's you will need.

As mentioned before study the market you want to break in to and find out what can't be done in your area and how much of it goes else where

[Dave Koehler]

If you are currently employed, stay there, form a purchasing plan and sneak up on this.
A real job with benefits and a sideline deal is probably smarter.

[mikes]

If you are currently employed, stay there, form a purchasing plan and sneak up on this.
A real job with benefits and a sideline deal is probably smarter.

I totally agree on this one. Especially to build a customer base.

[Belgian1979]

Just to add to this : I saw a kwik way boring bar for sale the other day for € 2000. Just the bar, no table.

Seen the lack of people to do quality work on American V8 for the restorations/racing here, that might be interesting. However I would rather buy a good sunnen bore hone and a couple of torque plates first if it were me.

Then maybe a line boring/honing machine.

Is it possible to actually enjoy honing a block?

Probably not, but that were apparently the quality in finish is. I didn't have one shop here around that did plate honing. Had to drive 300 kms to get mine done.

That being said, I would not want to go into that business to make a living out of it.

Carmarket here in EU, especially in Belgium is not good. And as for racing : not a lot of circuits that are still allowed to run races as noise limits get stricter and stricter. Soon the only thing we can still do here in our free time is sitting on the sofa, reading the paper and listening to the birds and pay taxes. Not exactly my cup of thea, but that's were it is going.