Crank wiper & windage tray?

[mdross1]

Still have no concrete answer as to when the scraper and windage tray really start to shine.Course I'm asking for a conventional answer and will relate it to this motor going in a motorcycle.The only G force the oil will see in this motor will be forward as in braking,rearward as in accelleration.Plan to run a vacuum pump on this motor as well.Most of the riding will be sensible only time buzzing the motor will be in burnouts,or out for a serious thrill ride.
So bottom line do I need these parts in the oil pan?

[Kevin Johnson]

Still have no concrete answer as to when the scraper and windage tray really start to shine.Course I'm asking for a conventional answer and will relate it to this motor going in a motorcycle.The only G force the oil will see in this motor will be forward as in braking,rearward as in accelleration.Plan to run a vacuum pump on this motor as well.Most of the riding will be sensible only time buzzing the motor will be in burnouts,or out for a serious thrill ride.
So bottom line do I need these parts in the oil pan?

You need to take a look at the modern bike engine pics uploaded recently -- I think Stef did it. Lemme look.

http://www.michaelbense.de/speicher/Der ... 1000RR.pdf

Page 39. Notice the shaft modified to actively scavange the gear train and thereby the crankcase volume? I am sure that was whimsical and breezed through accounting review. Do you need them? Probably not in a motorcycle but your competition will likely be ahead of you.

Edit -- whoa -- car engine (?) in a motorcycle without windage control? Transverse or longitudinal?

[Kevin Johnson]

Talking now from just Dyno testing.... Kevin and Dave what do you recommend for modifications and how much power have you found?

What was your baseline set up and finished results?

A recent very modern engine designed with full CAD gained 3.5% output at peak rpms with a windage tray (deflector) modified with screening and a zero-clearance scraper. Sitting on a static dyno.

So on the 600HP engines I'm dealing with now we are talking 21 Horses? I'm already there... but still a long way from 60 that Jenkins was talking about.

Well, maybe he read the Mercedes SAE paper presented in Detroit in 1975. Eight percent of 600 is 48 -- getting closer? SAE 750051. And that is not even 1G. And only 5500 rpm.

[SupStk]

[
So on the 600HP engines I'm dealing with now we are talking 21 Horses? I'm already there... but still a long way from 60 that Jenkins was talking about.[/quote]

Well, maybe he read the Mercedes SAE paper presented in Detroit in 1975. Eight percent of 600 is 48 -- getting closer? SAE 750051. And that is not even 1G. And only 5500 rpm.[/quote]

LOL..Oh yeah lots closer.... still trying to figure out why you'd want the crank IN the oil. Really no mystery what happens after it gets there

[Kevin Johnson]

So on the 600HP engines I'm dealing with now we are talking 21 Horses? I'm already there... but still a long way from 60 that Jenkins was talking about.

Well, maybe he read the Mercedes SAE paper presented in Detroit in 1975. Eight percent of 600 is 48 -- getting closer? SAE 750051. And that is not even 1G. And only 5500 rpm.

LOL..Oh yeah lots closer.... still trying to figure out why you'd want the crank IN the oil.

Mercedes did not want that, obviously. But they did real world testing with real world engines. And over forty years ago they dry sumped the m100. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_M100_engine

I guess the point is that we are arguing about things demonstrated four decades ago. And publically, too.

I mean, really -- have you checked out the active oil control in modern BMW V8 engines? For passenger cars.

[mdross1]

Still have no concrete answer as to when the scraper and windage tray really start to shine.Course I'm asking for a conventional answer and will relate it to this motor going in a motorcycle.The only G force the oil will see in this motor will be forward as in braking,rearward as in accelleration.Plan to run a vacuum pump on this motor as well.Most of the riding will be sensible only time buzzing the motor will be in burnouts,or out for a serious thrill ride.
So bottom line do I need these parts in the oil pan?

You need to take a look at the modern bike engine pics uploaded recently -- I think Stef did it. Lemme look.

http://www.michaelbense.de/speicher/Der ... 1000RR.pdf

Page 39. Notice the shaft modified to actively scavange the gear train and thereby the crankcase volume? I am sure that was whimsical and breezed through accounting review. Do you need them? Probably not in a motorcycle but your competition will likely be ahead of you.

Edit -- whoa -- car engine (?) in a motorcycle without windage control? Transverse or longitudinal?

This is the kind of answer I was looking for Thank you Kevin!! Last question just how close to the crankshaft can the scraper be installed ?

[Kevin Johnson]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for Thank you Kevin!! Last question just how close to the crankshaft can the scraper be installed ?

With a steel one you need to look at bearing-tolerance/clearance stacking and projected wear before reinspection as well as flexing of components. You could probably run safely at .020" but I suggest .040" to keep people out of trouble. When I measured the OEM clearance on the Viper motor it was at about .120" and on the Nissan SR20 about .040".

[mdross1]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for Thank you Kevin!! Last question just how close to the crankshaft can the scraper be installed ?

With a steel one you need to look at bearing-tolerance/clearance stacking and projected wear before reinspection as well as flexing of components. You could probably run safely at .020" but I suggest .040" to keep people out of trouble. When I measured the OEM clearance on the Viper motor it was at about .120" and on the Nissan SR20 about .040".

Great, the dimension is logged,do you have preference for a supplier.Might as well get a kit and contact ARP for the studs.
Mike Ross

[Kevin Johnson]

This is the kind of answer I was looking for Thank you Kevin!! Last question just how close to the crankshaft can the scraper be installed ?

With a steel one you need to look at bearing-tolerance/clearance stacking and projected wear before reinspection as well as flexing of components. You could probably run safely at .020" but I suggest .040" to keep people out of trouble. When I measured the OEM clearance on the Viper motor it was at about .120" and on the Nissan SR20 about .040".

Great, the dimension is logged,do you have preference for a supplier.Might as well get a kit and contact ARP for the studs.
Mike Ross

You will probably need to design your own for a bike engine. This can be done using some Styrene sheet stock (.060") and then have the pattern cut by a jobshop with a CNC cutter (or cut it out yourself). The position/orientation of the scraper with respect to the handed rotating assembly is important. Generally the constraint is existing mounting locations if you use a design philosophy of minimal modification to the existing parts. From your remark it sounds like you want to use the main cap fasteners. There are many designs you can study. Fourteen gauge steel is generally adequate (~.080") but this will depend on the particular design, of course.

[mdross1]

The pan is already built so will have to get a set of main studs for the tray.Will purchase the tray and scraper after market then tweak them to fit.The pan flanges are very thick (close to 1/2") may even mill a place for the scraper.Once it all shows up will decide.

[mdross1]

Getting ready to order the windage tray and scraper,anybody want to add info as to the tray that seems to work the best?

[rfoll]

I have read the grid types, (expanded metal or screen) are more effective because the oil does not bounce back to the crank. I have had issues with the length of the studs providing enough standoff to keep the rods from hitting. The Moroso mounting stus appear to be a little longer.

[MadBill]

Shucks...... now I'm really BAFFLED! So as I think about your answers, Kevin..... if I have a -13.6" H2O vacuum in the lower case, instead of the engine case being @ 29.92" Hg(sea level), the inside of the case now would be @ 28.92"Hg....... & the danged wind can still blow??!! This is killing me...... I need to go back to the Aerospace business! LOL! -Dave-

Err... Not quite. Crankcase vacuum is normally measured in inches of mercury, so in this example the case would be at 16.3" Hg.