What's wrong with NASCAR's EFI?

[dieselgeek]

But when it comes down to EFI tuning versus carb tuning by two people with equal experience... the EFI tuner will find the best tune far quicker than the carburetor tuner. And if you want to open up that "carburetor challenge" you can count on me being there to demonstrate

Well since ADRL opened up Pro-Stock to run either EFI or Carburetors there's the perfect platform for you to actually prove your claims.

I already proved it when I swapped out two of your carbs for EFI on a Bonneville car, and went 12mph faster. You can look us up in the book under "A Production" if you don't believe me.

[Warp Speed]

But when it comes down to EFI tuning versus carb tuning by two people with equal experience... the EFI tuner will find the best tune far quicker than the carburetor tuner. And if you want to open up that "carburetor challenge" you can count on me being there to demonstrate

Well since ADRL opened up Pro-Stock to run either EFI or Carburetors there's the perfect platform for you to actually prove your claims.

The water is warm, come jump in the deep end with the rest of us.

Ah...come on Doug.......the shits easy!!!! LOL

[Doug Schriefer]

But when it comes down to EFI tuning versus carb tuning by two people with equal experience... the EFI tuner will find the best tune far quicker than the carburetor tuner. And if you want to open up that "carburetor challenge" you can count on me being there to demonstrate

Well since ADRL opened up Pro-Stock to run either EFI or Carburetors there's the perfect platform for you to actually prove your claims.

I already proved it when I swapped out two of your carbs for EFI on a Bonneville car, and went 12mph faster. You can look us up in the book under "A Production" if you don't believe me.

Wow you have one Record... I'm impressed... You made the comment that if the challenge was open you'd come play... So come play.

[Doug Schriefer]

Ah...come on Doug.......the shits easy!!!! LOL

Well it's certainly not Rocket Surgery

[Rick1999]

What is the 'average' cost of a NASCAR carb and how many carbs per year does a team buy and test per year? The EFI switch allows a spec throttle body and ECU with NO modification. Pretty sure that ($30k) cost comparison becomes a wash in a hurry. Tuning time is tuning time regardless of carb or efi.

Our Cup carbs are between $2000 and $2500 depending on certain features some teams want, I can build a carburetor that would make the same, actually more power for about $1200 but it wouldn't be legal for the rules, so the restrictions on venturi and TB diameter cause us to have to do some very time consuming operations to get that last little bit of air flow. I think most teams like to have 2 carbs per car at a race so they have a back-up if something goes wrong. But like Doug said most teams have an in-house carb program now days and as Warp speed said, little has changed in the last few years so they aren't really buying complete carbs anymore, they are just maintaining what they already have. Booster changes, base plates, metering blocks are what we mostly sell to the teams now, about the only time they buy a complete carb anymore is when they add a customer to an engine leasing program.

[dieselgeek]

Wow you have one Record... I'm impressed... You made the comment that if the challenge was open you'd come play... So come play.

Interesting that you changed the subject and got all grouchy. Just a little FYI, at last count I've tuned EFI on cars that have taken 15 SCTA records since 2005, more if you count ECTA and I also have two at El Mirage. Sorry for taking the ones that used to be yours.

Meanwhile I have a 2800hp turbo engine going together for A BG/ALT if you like we can have a contest and see how your carbs do at 30psi?

Let me know when/where to show up and I'll bring a sub-$1000 EFI system to play. I love competition.

[levisnteeshirt]

Wow you have one Record... I'm impressed... You made the comment that if the challenge was open you'd come play... So come play.

Interesting that you changed the subject and got all grouchy. Just a little FYI, at last count I've tuned EFI on cars that have taken 15 SCTA records since 2005, more if you count ECTA and I also have two at El Mirage. Sorry for taking the ones that used to be yours.

Meanwhile I have a 2800hp turbo engine going together for A BG/ALT if you like we can have a contest and see how your carbs do at 30psi?

Let me know when/where to show up and I'll bring a sub-$1000 EFI system to play. I love competition.

when they run those in Nascar he might be interested in talking to you

[Doug Schriefer]

Wow you have one Record... I'm impressed... You made the comment that if the challenge was open you'd come play... So come play.

Interesting that you changed the subject and got all grouchy. Just a little FYI, at last count I've tuned EFI on cars that have taken 15 SCTA records since 2005, more if you count ECTA and I also have two at El Mirage. Sorry for taking the ones that used to be yours.

Meanwhile I have a 2800hp turbo engine going together for A BG/ALT if you like we can have a contest and see how your carbs do at 30psi?

Let me know when/where to show up and I'll bring a sub-$1000 EFI system to play. I love competition.

Never changed my tune at all. You mentioned if the Carburetor shootout was open you come and that is where I went from. As I've always stated there are always pros and cons to both systems. You made mention in the past that you could improve the performance of some of the EFI Nitrous Pro-Mod cars due to your tuning knowledge, so I figured a Naturally Aspirated Carburetors vs. EFI with everything else being equal would be a challenge you would love to have. Heck I'd love to see you build a sub $1000 EFI system for an 800" Pro-Stock engine. If you can you're doing something that NO OTHER EFI guy in the country can come close to doing.

[dieselgeek]

You made mention in the past that you could improve the performance of some of the EFI Nitrous Pro-Mod cars due to your tuning knowledge

Maybe you're thinking of someone else? I don't make bold claims unless I can back them up. Please post a quote or link to this claim!

so I figured a Naturally Aspirated Carburetors vs. EFI with everything else being equal would be a challenge you would love to have. Heck I'd love to see you build a sub $1000 EFI system for an 800" Pro-Stock engine. If you can you're doing something that NO OTHER EFI guy in the country can come close to doing.

Just a heads up, but the Megasquirt guys have sold around 30,000 EFI systems that range in price from $180 (kit Megasquirt 1) to $700 (fully assembled Megasquirt 3x). I am FAR from being the only guy implementing sub-1000-dollar EFI systems out there.

Our Engine Masters Challenge "Early Hemi" used a $700 Megasquirt-3x that allowed us to configure individual cylinder ignition timing & fuel quantity, and even used closed-loop self corrections *per cylinder* (note that not even an fully loaded Motec can do individual cylidner closed loop corrections). I'm not sure how you'd compare this with a carburetor, but give this "cheapo" system a little credit - it tuned itself better than I could tune it myself. For the other EFI components, we used a crankshaft trigger wheel and pickup sensor that Danny got FREE from a U-pullit off of a wrecked Ford Escort; enigma57 donated a Cam position sensor off a wrecked Dodge pickup truck engine, and Danny also picked up a free set of LS coilpacks and wires from his buddy at U-pullit. Hilborn donated the injectors, which would have cost us $400. That is right in line with the price of a carburetor HOWEVER - this same platform (with a change in injector size) can run anything from a lawnmower to a 2800hp turbocharged LSR engine (which I am preparing for Speedweek 2012). I forgot to include the 8 O2 sensors, which came in a kit I built from jbperf.com for a little under $1000.

Maybe YOUR efi friends can't do EFI for near the price of a carb, but maybe they're not aware of the choices they have in EFI systems?

[Mpcoluv]

The Megasquirt is a cost effective ECU, but modify a single plane intake, injectors, fuel rail, pump, pressure regulator, throttle body w/IAC, etc... and it costs way more than $1K. Many more people would run EFI if it didn't cost so much more to swap to non SBC/302 fords

[dieselgeek]

The Megasquirt is a cost effective ECU, but modify a single plane intake, injectors, fuel rail, pump, pressure regulator, throttle body w/IAC, etc... and it costs way more than $1K. Many more people would run EFI if it didn't cost so much more to swap to non SBC/302 fords

That cost goes along with any EFI system conversion, not just megasquirt. Converting a carb'd engine to EFI has those expenses, but not everyone is converting carb engines over - take a look at what's in the junkyard nowadays, EFI'd Chevies, Mopars, Fords - it's far more expensive to convert them to carb + distributor than it is to use their existing EFI parts and run a megasquirt. These are what go into low buck swaps, so the EFI wins the "cheapness" battle in the case of late model engine swaps.

Meanwhile, I'm always surprised at the complaints about spending $1000-2000 on a system that not only injects the fuel (like a carb) but gives the owner a huge array of additional control: advanced ignition control, fueling based on barometric corrections, tricks for increased economy (do carbs do Decel Fuel Cut?), datalogging, etc. The same guys who complain loudly about receiving a ton of upgraded functionality for this price never seem to mind spending twice that on a set of wheels or billet front dress.

[Mpcoluv]

They complain about the $2K or more (for an old carb engine) because the Summit catalog is full of $600 carbs

[dieselgeek]

They complain about the $2K or more (for an old carb engine) because the Summit catalog is full of $600 carbs

Sure, but again - if the carburetors in the summit catalog can adjust themselves for DA or control ignition advance, or give you a datalog after a pass - then the comparison is fair.

[levisnteeshirt]

u can rig a carb for data logging ,,, a carb will adjust itself to a certain degree of atmospheric changes , differences in air flow through it will change the pressure drop in the venturis


a EFI system HAS TO BE able to do this by design ,,, if it isn't , then its time to jerk out the lap top and start all over ,,,

if you think you can pull a TBI controller out of a factory vehicle and get it to work with a 270 @ .050 cam ,,, i'd like to see that

[dieselgeek]

u can rig a carb for data logging ,,,

And then you have a carb that costs as much as EFI. Have you priced standalone dataloggers lately? same price as EFI. Thanks for supporting my argument

a carb will adjust itself to a certain degree of atmospheric changes , differences in air flow through it will change the pressure drop in the venturis

"to a certain degree" ? not enough to count. Will a carb pull 15% fuel when going from the dyno at sea level to Bonneville at 6800' DA? no.

a EFI system HAS TO BE able to do this by design ,,, if it isn't , then its time to jerk out the lap top and start all over ,,,

What's your point? This works automatically with EFI. Not with a carb.

if you think you can pull a TBI controller out of a factory vehicle and get it to work with a 270 @ .050 cam ,,, i'd like to see that

Who said that?? TBI sucks, but notice how many people are buying into the "looks like a carb, but self tunes" EFI systems? tell those guys, not me. I'm familiar with tuning EFI on aggressive cam profiles.