What's wrong with NASCAR's EFI?

[levisnteeshirt]

if this is all nascar has up their sleeve to try to get the fans back ,, i think they're done already ,,, all this will do is cost money ,,, small teams will suffer ,,

[thatguy]

I'll wade into this mess. I believe there's nothing wrong with NASCAR's EFI other than teething problems. Some will get a handle on it quick and others will take some time. Just like when they took away the inserts for restrictor plate engines.

[PhilD]

What a disappointment:
http://i.cdn.turner.com/nascar/dam/asse ... ry-top.jpg
I expected to see something like this:
http://www.team-integra.net/images/BAEC ... lenum2.jpg

I though they were going to take advantage of the EFI, with IR manifolds, two stage injectors, etc.
To me it looks like they've gone a step back, instead of forward.

[Keith Morganstein]

I'm not sure anything is "wrong". Reports are that the cars are running as strong (lap times, MPH) and have better manners at lower speeds.

[mike fabish]

I think Nascar was reluctant to turn the BIg Guys loose with the real Hi Tech F.I. stuff......Nascar didnt have the technical expertise to police that kind of technology....I think the advantage may come in the form of Fuel Economy.....Not having to make a fuel stop is way more valuable than a 6-10 hp advantage over another team.....shutting down injectors discriminately could prove to be the "extra fuel capacity" trick of this era...Does anyone know if they are prohibited from this kind of tuning?? Hey Rick Cole.......Thanks again for the great facility,hospitality and first class event hosted by BLP......Could not have been a better event.....Mike :

[n2omike]

It's easier to start with the rules tight, then loosen them... instead of the other way around.
Unfortunately, everyone will have to continue to adapt with every single revision. lol

[jmarkaudio]

]Hendrick Motorsports and Roush Yates Engines probably have (counting back-ups and whats in the back-up cars) about 25 engines a piece at each Cup race, there's just simply not enough hours in the couple of days they have between races to do the kind of testing you are talking about to each and every engine. They flog the living crap out of the R&D pieces and then duplicate the best combo, check it out with a few dyno pulls, and put it on the truck. As far as cost, from what I've been hearing it's going to be very expensive, way more expensive than the carburetors were.

Pretty much the way it is!!

Like both Doug and Rock have stated, there is only so much you can do to a carb (especially rules limited) and that work has been done years ago. VERY little has changed in the past 6-8 years as far as carb set-up.
When we get a new carb, we spend a few hours doing some team specific prep, run it a few pulls on the dyno to be sure there are no problems, and power out-put is as expected, then it goes to a track to be dialed in. We can do some of this "track tuning" on the dyno (and have gotten pretty good at it once they limited testing) but nothing compares to the track, for both carb AND manifold work. Now getting carbs to this point has taken thousands of hours, but over a decades of time, by many involved also! LOL

Now FI is a whole new deal, and believe me, it is NOT saving anyone any money. I believe it is right around $30,000.00 per car (not team) to do it, and that doesn't include engine components (sensors, manifold, TB ect..)!
Most of the starting issues have been either driver error (they are used to spinning it over, flipping the switch and it fires) or an improperly adjusted cam sensor. There has been a few other MINOR issues, but thats about it.

Hey Diesel, this is coming from someone that CURRENTLY works for a Cup team. And $30,000 per car for EFI? That can buy LOTS of carbs. A friend of mine recently spent about a week tuning an EFI system from scratch (not including installation time), I busted his chops that he could have built a carb from scratch and tune it in a day...

[jmarkaudio]

I think Nascar was reluctant to turn the BIg Guys loose with the real Hi Tech F.I. stuff......Nascar didnt have the technical expertise to police that kind of technology....I think the advantage may come in the form of Fuel Economy.....Not having to make a fuel stop is way more valuable than a 6-10 hp advantage over another team.....shutting down injectors discriminately could prove to be the "extra fuel capacity" trick of this era...Does anyone know if they are prohibited from this kind of tuning?? Hey Rick Cole.......Thanks again for the great facility,hospitality and first class event hosted by BLP......Could not have been a better event.....Mike :

What's up Mike, great meeting you and Dale, and it was a great time at BLP.

As far as fuel savings, they will get a bit better economy, but all of them will have the same opportunity.

[mike fabish]

JMark.... Getting ready to retire....Friday will be my last day..40 years goes by faster than you think..hahahah Hey I'll give you a PM soon...Wanted to talk 2 circuit ..lol say Hey to Bruce.....Mike... Watching the Republican Debates right now.....

[Rick1999]

I think Nascar was reluctant to turn the BIg Guys loose with the real Hi Tech F.I. stuff......Nascar didnt have the technical expertise to police that kind of technology....I think the advantage may come in the form of Fuel Economy.....Not having to make a fuel stop is way more valuable than a 6-10 hp advantage over another team.....shutting down injectors discriminately could prove to be the "extra fuel capacity" trick of this era...Does anyone know if they are prohibited from this kind of tuning?? Hey Rick Cole.......Thanks again for the great facility,hospitality and first class event hosted by BLP......Could not have been a better event.....Mike :

Thanks Mike, it was great meeting you and I'm glad you could make it. I think you are right on with the fuel economy, I'm not sure what they are allowed to do but I know they are resticted from taking full advantage of what EFI has to offer, I'm not even sure the final rules are even set yet so we'll have to wait and see.

Congrats on the retirement, nothing but racing from now on You guys need to try and make a division 2 race this year, Bristol isn't that far. We have the Norwalk national event penciled in on our schedule, hopefully everything works out and we can make it.

[jmarkaudio]

JMark.... Getting ready to retire....Friday will be my last day..40 years goes by faster than you think..hahahah Hey I'll give you a PM soon...Wanted to talk 2 circuit ..lol say Hey to Bruce.....Mike... Watching the Republican Debates right now.....

Retired , if you get tired of the cold weather you know where it's warmer...

[dieselgeek]

A friend of mine recently spent about a week tuning an EFI system from scratch (not including installation time), I busted his chops that he could have built a carb from scratch and tune it in a day...

If I gave you an EFI system and you had no experience tuning them, then I'd expect you to take a week or more to learn the ropes. Just the same as you'd expect someone who's never seen a carburetor or tuned one, to take longer to tune it.

But when it comes down to EFI tuning versus carb tuning by two people with equal experience... the EFI tuner will find the best tune far quicker than the carburetor tuner. And if you want to open up that "carburetor challenge" you can count on me being there to demonstrate

[revolutionary]

What is the 'average' cost of a NASCAR carb and how many carbs per year does a team buy and test per year? The EFI switch allows a spec throttle body and ECU with NO modification. Pretty sure that ($30k) cost comparison becomes a wash in a hurry. Tuning time is tuning time regardless of carb or efi.

[Doug Schriefer]

But when it comes down to EFI tuning versus carb tuning by two people with equal experience... the EFI tuner will find the best tune far quicker than the carburetor tuner. And if you want to open up that "carburetor challenge" you can count on me being there to demonstrate

Well since ADRL opened up Pro-Stock to run either EFI or Carburetors there's the perfect platform for you to actually prove your claims.

The water is warm, come jump in the deep end with the rest of us.

[Doug Schriefer]

What is the 'average' cost of a NASCAR carb and how many carbs per year does a team buy and test per year? The EFI switch allows a spec throttle body and ECU with NO modification. Pretty sure that ($30k) cost comparison becomes a wash in a hurry. Tuning time is tuning time regardless of carb or efi.

The overwhelming majority of the large teams had in house carburetor programs so the cost honestly wasn't nearly as much as one would think.