From Big Brother to Big Mother

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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:40 pm

David, I'm curious, why didn't you answer my question. I'll ask it a different way.

Would you stand by the killing of a baby that is half way out of the womb in support of the right to abortion?

Anti-abortionists should eagerly volunteer to pay for and raise those unwanted childern and not dump them on society while assuming a holier than thou attitude.


David the multiple false premises you have used tells me that you are either misinformed or just have some axe to grind.

If you have ever tried to adopt a healthy new born baby, you would know that the waiting lines are so long it is nearly impossible. The problem is that there are older children available but not small babies.

My friends know that I travel as lot and have some influential contacts, a month rarely passes that one of my friends doesn't ask me if I know any place and way they could adopt from outside of the USA after waiting for years in trying to do so in the USA. Even in former soviet union countries the cost of an adoption runs about $80K including legal costs, bribes etc. There are so many people wanting to do this that there are hundreds of people in the business of making those arrangments.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:36 am

"David Redszus" wrote:
I find it easy to support abortion rights. The attempt by some to link abortion to murder is nonsensical.

As a society we tolerate murder each and every day. We hire young men and train them in the craft of murder. And then justify their behaviour as a political necessity.


Even if I agreed with your analogy (and I don't) your argument fails as the logic is "two wrongs make a right"

Every year we murder innocent men who have been wrongly convicted of a crime. Oops, we say, that is simply unavoidable and must be tolerated.


Another "two wrongs make a right" argument based on an unsupported premise.

There is a very large difference between life and quality of life. An unwanted child will be made to suffer for its entire life. It may well end up under-educated, anti-social, criminal in attitude and behaviour and end up in prison. A baby born with an incurable illness is also made to suffer for its entire life. Why would anyone condemn a child to a lifelong of suffering? Would you be willing to trade places? Most likely, not.


Now you are really getting ridiculous, are you saying that if a child is unwanted it should be killed? If so, wouldn't that logic be independent of the birth? So according to your "logic" we can kill unwanted children of any age? That's really sick man, think about where you are going with this. Also compare the life of the typical unwanted child born in the USA, 80% of the people born in the rest of the world would gladly trade places.

So if it is your view that unwanted children should be killed, have you ever looked up the people that were adopted and went on to do great things?

And to those that say they support abortion rights,,,unless you can state the exact point in the tiimeline when killing a child is abortion and when it is murder, you are simply spewing a meaningless platitiude, I ask you to think this through and see if you can define the exact point beyond which killing is murder; is it 50% out, cutting the cord? what is it?. I think you will find that you are not as in favor of the right to choose as you thought once you think this through in detail.

I'll leave ou with this, when you find yourself holding a position that Sid Viscious of the Sexx Pistols (one of the most depraved people ever) thought was a disgrace, you are propably well advised to improve your values.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glgDZN3p1wM
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby David Redszus » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:30 pm

SchmidtMotorWorks wrote:"David Redszus" wrote:
I find it easy to support abortion rights. The attempt by some to link abortion to murder is nonsensical.

As a society we tolerate murder each and every day. We hire young men and train them in the craft of murder. And then justify their behaviour as a political necessity.


Even if I agreed with your analogy (and I don't) your argument fails as the logic is "two wrongs make a right"

Every year we murder innocent men who have been wrongly convicted of a crime. Oops, we say, that is simply unavoidable and must be tolerated.


Another "two wrongs make a right" argument based on an unsupported premise.

There is a very large difference between life and quality of life. An unwanted child will be made to suffer for its entire life. It may well end up under-educated, anti-social, criminal in attitude and behaviour and end up in prison. A baby born with an incurable illness is also made to suffer for its entire life. Why would anyone condemn a child to a lifelong of suffering? Would you be willing to trade places? Most likely, not.


Now you are really getting ridiculous, are you saying that if a child is unwanted it should be killed? If so, wouldn't that logic be independent of the birth? So according to your "logic" we can kill unwanted children of any age? That's really sick man, think about where you are going with this. Also compare the life of the typical unwanted child born in the USA, 80% of the people born in the rest of the world would gladly trade places.

So if it is your view that unwanted children should be killed, have you ever looked up the people that were adopted and went on to do great things?

And to those that say they support abortion rights,,,unless you can state the exact point in the tiimeline when killing a child is abortion and when it is murder, you are simply spewing a meaningless platitiude, I ask you to think this through and see if you can define the exact point beyond which killing is murder; is it 50% out, cutting the cord? what is it?. I think you will find that you are not as in favor of the right to choose as you thought once you think this through in detail.

I'll leave ou with this, when you find yourself holding a position that Sid Viscious of the Sexx Pistols (one of the most depraved people ever) thought was a disgrace, you are propably well advised to improve your values.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glgDZN3p1wM

Jon, your idealism is, in some ways admirable, but quite unrealistic. One day you might venture into the real world.

Repeating my earlier position, I do not consider abortion to be murder in any way. I consider abortion to be a medical procedure and should be governed by the ethics and practices of that profession. A fetus is part of a womans body and not a separate being until birth.

Your moral (?) views notwithstanding, should only apply to your own behavior and not be allowed to affect the behavior of anyone else. If you do not believe there is a place for abortion, then don't get one. But each of us must decide for ourselves and not allow your views and values to override our own.

I also believe that euthanasia has a proper place in our society. I do not believe that every life is precious and must be saved at any cost to society. Some lives do indeed place a great and unnecessary burden upon society.

If euthanasia and abortion were practiced more rigorously, we would have many fewer Democrats. And the quality of life of the entire country would be improved. :D
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:46 pm

Jon, your idealism is, in some ways admirable, but quite unrealistic. One day you might venture into the real world.


David actually the opposite is true, my question about the the dividing line between abortion and murder is exactly reality. It's the reality that no one (including you) wants to face. Just tell me that last moment that abortion is acceptable in your view, then you will be dealing with reality as I am.

I think there were a two main reasons people become pro-choice (maybe more): none of them admirable.

1. As more and more people reject religion, if a Christian is against something, they are automatically for it in a knee-jerk reflexive way regardless of the merits of the position. This has been one of the most noticable traits of leftist "ideas", while they claim to be thoughtful, nuanced and progressive, when you examine thier views in detail they don't hold up to even the lightest tests of logic.

2. Loose women aren't into anti-abortion guys, I think a lot of pragmatic men say they are pro-choice without thinking it through because they think they won't get much otherwise. Kind of pathetic reason to be PW'd.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby CamKing » Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:59 pm

David Redszus wrote:There is a very large difference between life and quality of life. .

Then you need to get your gun, and go to the nearest old folks home.

Who in the he!! are you to decide what quality of life is worth living?
Neither you, the government, or the unborn child's mother are qualified to make that decision.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:24 pm

Who in the he!! are you to decide what quality of life is worth living?


David, how about this one? A life worth living?

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby pdq67 » Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:37 pm

Look, been there so know ALL about it!

You two pop your nuts and next month she's corked!!!

Then if you two want to get rid of it imho, you are KILLING A BABY so if you can go ahead and justify whatever you do in your MIND, but that's what you've done!

You've killed a BABY!!!

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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby Brian S » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:09 pm

Why do these threads about obesity keep turning into abortion debates?

Palin's reckless views on obesity.....whattajoke!
http://forums.corral.net/forums/showthr ... ?t=1267901
My complaint about Michelle is not her eating habits, it's about her belief that parents cannot be trusted to make basic decisions for their children so the Government must intervene.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby David Redszus » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:13 pm

David actually the opposite is true, my question about the the dividing line between abortion and murder is exactly reality. It's the reality that no one (including you) wants to face. Just tell me that last moment that abortion is acceptable in your view, then you will be dealing with reality as I am.
Your insistence on installing a dividing line between abortion and murder is invalid; they are not a continum. The only reality to face is that millions of women, around the world, choose to obtain abortions for reasons that affect their lives, not yours or mine. And therefore it is none of your business. Or mine.

Even if I agreed with your analogy (and I don't) your argument fails as the logic is "two wrongs make a right"
There is no logic argument, yours is entirely an emotional position.

So then how many wrongs do make a right? Six, twenty, fifty? What makes you think that wrongful actions and rightful actions are even on the same scale?

Throughout history one fact has always been very clear: "Might makes right." That is, and always will be "reality".
When a society, be it ancient or modern, has enough power to force its values onto its populations, those said values become "right". All other values will be punished, with death if necessary. No culture has ever escaped from that reality, including ours.

Useless moralizing is a complete waste of time and is a departure from reality. Actions that to one religious cult may seem moral are seen as irrelevent to others. Please consider the following statistics to see just how far out of touch with reality your anti-abortion views really are.

WORLDWIDE
Number of abortions per year: Approximately 42 Million
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 115,000
Where abortions occur:
83% of all abortions are obtained in developing countries and 17% occur in developed countries.

UNITED STATES
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700

Who's having abortions (age)?
52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

Who's having abortions (race)?
While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Likelihood of abortion:
An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.

WORLDWIDE
• Although abortion rates and ratios (the number of abortions for every 100 births) in Eastern Europe have fallen significantly in recent years, they remain higher than in any other region. In 2003, there were more abortions than births in that region (105 abortions for every 100 births).
• The estimated number of induced abortions in Africa has increased since 1995; however, the region’s abortion rate has declined because of an increase in the number of reproductive-age women.
• Induced abortion rates and numbers in Asia and Latin America show modest declines since 1995.
• The lowest abortion rate in the world is in Western Europe (12 per 1,000 women aged 15–44). The rate is 17 in Northern Europe and 21 in Northern America (Canada and the United States of America).
• Because the world’s population is concentrated in Asia, most abortions occur there (26 million yearly); nine million of these take place in China.

ABORTION LAW

• Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions.
• Where abortion is legal and permitted on broad grounds, it is generally safe, and where it is illegal in many circumstances, it is often unsafe. For example, in South Africa, the incidence of infection resulting from abortion decreased by 52% after the abortion law was liberalized in 1996.
• Since 1997, the grounds on which abortion may be legally performed were broadened in 17 countries: Benin, Bhutan, Cambodia, Chad, Colombia, Ethiopia, Guinea, Iran, Mali, Nepal, Niger, Portugal, Saint Lucia, Swaziland, Switzerland, Thailand and Togo. One territory and three states in Australia (Capital Territory, Victoria, Tasmania and Western Australia) and one state in Mexico (Mexico Federal District) also liberalized their laws. In contrast, El Salvador and Nicaragua changed their already restrictive laws to prohibit abortion entirely while Poland withdrew socioeconomic reasons as a legal ground.
• Worldwide, medication abortion has gained broad acceptance. At least 39 countries have registered mifepristone, 35 in the last 10 years.

UNSAFE ABORTION
• The World Health Organization defines unsafe abortion as a procedure for terminating an unintended pregnancy carried out either by persons lacking the necessary skills or in an environment that does not conform to minimal medical standards, or both.
• Worldwide, 48% of all induced abortions are unsafe. However, in developed regions, nearly all abortions (92%) are safe, whereas in developing countries, more than half (55%) are unsafe.

Samples of Unsafe Abortion Methods Used
• Drinking turpentine, bleach or tea made with livestock manure
• Inserting herbal preparations into the vagina or cervix
• Placing foreign bodies, such as a stick, coat hanger or chicken bone, into the uterus
• Jumping from the top of stairs or a roof

• More than 95% of abortions in Africa and Latin America are performed under unsafe circumstances, as are about 60% of abortions in Asia (excluding Eastern Asia).
• The worldwide unsafe abortion rate was essentially unchanged between 1995 and 2003 (15 and 14 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44, respectively). Because the overall abortion rate declined during this period, the proportion of all abortions that are unsafe increased from 44% to 47%.

CONSEQUENCES OF UNSAFE ABORTION
• Worldwide, an estimated five million women are hospitalized each year for treatment of abortion-related complications, such as hemorrhage and sepsis.
• Complications due to unsafe abortion procedures account for an estimated 13% of maternal deaths worldwide, or 70,000 per year.
• Almost all abortion-related deaths occur in developing countries. They are highest in Africa, where there were an estimated 650 deaths per 100,000 unsafe abortions in 2003, compared with 10 per 100,000 in developed regions.
• Approximately 220,000 children worldwide lose their mothers every year from abortion-related deaths.
• Additional consequences of unsafe abortion include loss of productivity, economic burden on public health systems, stigma and long-term health problems, such as infertility.

UNINTENDED PREGNANCIES: THE ROOT OF ABORTION
• Of the estimated 208 million pregnancies that occurred worldwide in 2008, 33 million (16%) resulted in unintended births and 41 million ended in induced abortions. (20%)
• Of the 23 million pregnancies that occur in developed countries, more than 40% are unintended, and 28% end in induced abortion.
• Of the 185 million pregnancies that occur in developing countries, 40% are unintended, and 19% end in induced abortion.
• The average woman must use some form of effective contraception for at least 20 years if she wants to limit her family size to two children, and 16 years if she wants four children.
• According to a 2009 report, an estimated 215 million women in the developing world have an unmet need for modern contraceptives, meaning they want to avoid a pregnancy but are using a traditional family planning method or no method.
• Some 82% of unintended pregnancies in developing countries occur among women who have an unmet need for modern contraceptives; women using modern contraceptives account for only 18% of unintended pregnancies.
• The reasons why women (married and unmarried) do not use contraceptives most commonly include concerns about possible health and side-effects and the belief that they are not at risk of getting pregnant.

© Copyright 1996-2008, The Alan Guttmacher Institute. (http://www.agi-usa.org)
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby David Redszus » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:18 pm

CamKing wrote:
David Redszus wrote:There is a very large difference between life and quality of life. .

Then you need to get your gun, and go to the nearest old folks home.

Who in the he!! are you to decide what quality of life is worth living?
Neither you, the government, or the unborn child's mother are qualified to make that decision.
Very, very wrong Mike. Please see above comments regarding "Might is Right".

Neither parents, religion, nor laws have been able to curtail abortion. The "Might" is in the hands of the woman; all others keep walking.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby CamKing » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:47 pm

David Redszus wrote:
CamKing wrote:
David Redszus wrote:There is a very large difference between life and quality of life. .

Then you need to get your gun, and go to the nearest old folks home.

Who in the he!! are you to decide what quality of life is worth living?
Neither you, the government, or the unborn child's mother are qualified to make that decision.
Very, very wrong Mike. Please see above comments regarding "Might is Right".

Neither parents, religion, nor laws have been able to curtail abortion. The "Might" is in the hands of the woman; all others keep walking.

Very weak.
You can't back up your statments and views, so you change them, and say it's all the mother's fault.
Weak.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:58 pm

Your insistence on installing a dividing line between abortion and murder is invalid; they are not a continum.


It is a time continuum, your denial of it and your inabilty to answer the question isn't hidden by your lame copy and paste of the obvious and well known data that doesn't refute my point at all.

The only reality to face is that millions of women, around the world, choose to obtain abortions for reasons that affect their lives, not yours or mine. And therefore it is none of your business. Or mine.


Actually I think it is a major contributing factor to the degradation of western society. if you haven't noticed that where abortion prevails the culture degrades, you aren't paying attention to reality.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby David Redszus » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:35 pm

It is a time continuum, your denial of it and your inabilty to answer the question isn't hidden by your lame copy and paste of the obvious and well known data that doesn't refute my point at all.
Your sophmoric question has been answered repeatedly; you simply don't like reality. The data posted are not well known to all, certain not to you or you would not suggest that most of the world is wrong and you are correct.

The fact is that you don't really have a point to make at all. You have strong emotions regarding the topic to which you are certainly entitled. But you are not "right", unless of course, you intend to use government "might" to force others to accept your perspective. But look what happens when abortions become illegal; matters get much worse. Its called reality.

• The lowest abortion rate in the world is in Western Europe (12 per 1,000 women aged 15–44). The rate is 17 in Northern Europe and 21 in Northern America (Canada and the United States of America).

• Because the world’s population is concentrated in Asia, most abortions occur there (26 million yearly); nine million of these take place in China.


Let's see what this means according to Jon.
The abortion rate in North America is fairly low and the US is degrading as a society.
The abortion rate in China (and Asia) is high and they are kicking our asss.

Please do not confuse correlation with causation. And save your pseudo-morality for those who cannot think for themselves.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:40 pm

Useless moralizing is a complete waste of time and is a departure from reality.


Not in my life, in my life I have used "moralizing" to sort out my friends and business associates and how I deal with them.

My friends have come to depend on my moralizing and know exactly what they can expect from me and how reliable I am. This has formed my reputation and that reputation has afforded me opportunities that people with multiples of my knowledge, energy and experience will never have. In my life it has been priceless.
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Re: From Big Brother to Big Mother

Postby SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:46 pm

Your sophmoric question has been answered repeatedly;

Really what is the time then? I must have missed it. :roll:


Let's see what this means according to Jon.
The abortion rate in North America is fairly low and the US is degrading as a society.
The abortion rate in China (and Asia) is high and they are kicking our asss.


David your cluelessness is showing. UUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH,,,do you know why the abortion rate is high in China?

Next time you have 2 seconds you can tell me everything you know about China and the culture there. :roll:
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