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maxracesoftware
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1934
Location: Abbeville, LA
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Fatman wrote: | Larry
With regards to the 4500 flange of the 2970, why not leave the cloverleaf shape at the face but then blend it out as you radius into the tops of the intake runners?
I thought the cloverleaf would take up some dead space in the plenum, maybe making it more suitable for a 700-750hp small block. |
milling out the Cloverleaf in the 700-750+ HP ranges
"definetly" makes more high RPM HP in my Tests !
in that picture the Cloverleaf material "blocks" some of
the "perimeter airflow" to each pair of runners
example->
under Carb Bore is Cylinders 1 & 3
so Cylinders 1 & 3 can easily share or get CFM flow out the
Carb Throttle Bores across from Cylinders 6 & 8
but from Cyl 5 & 7 and 2 & 4 , its partially blocked by the Cloverleaf wall
as you go around the "perimeter "
1 pair of cylinders Carb Throttle Bore Airflow
will always be partially blocked to its neighbor
as the size Engine and RPM go up , along with better Heads
moving more air,
it will respond to milling out the cloverleaf to gain CFM to all Cylinders
..this is more of a problem with a relatively small plenum
that is also relatively small in depth
..not a problem with a Tee-Pee top single 4 sheetmetal manifold
you reach a certain point where milling out the Cloverleaf
allows you to run a smaller Carb like a 1050 in place of a 1250
if you wanted to ? ..or if you already had that size Carb,
and not loose as much high RPM HP as if you ran the 1050
with the Cloverleaf
vice/versa, if the CID and RPM range is lower
and the CFM demand lower,
then you want the Cloverleaf for more signal
and a little less plenum volume effect
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Last edited by maxracesoftware on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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maxracesoftware
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1934
Location: Abbeville, LA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| 67RS502 wrote: | My question is why not start with the 2970?
It looks like the runners are straighter (coming into the head),
and the csa is 3.2" on the 2970 compared to 2.8" on the 2925 (per edelbrock)
Also looks like the 2970 would need less work in the plenum.
Would it be a bad idea to run the 2970 (less porting for me) with a 4150 carb, on a 600+hp 420sbc? |
My question is why not start with the 2970?
..that's real easy to answer
because that's the manifold the Customer already purchased
and its hard to talk him into buying a different one
or i'm using the smaller #2925 for a smaller CID and/or RPM Range
| Quote: | | Would it be a bad idea to run the 2970 (less porting for me) with a 4150 carb, on a 600+hp 420sbc |
the #2970 is a 4500 Carb Top + bolt pattern
..to use it, you would need to make an adapter
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maxracesoftware
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1934
Location: Abbeville, LA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: - |
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| Fatman wrote: | larry
thanks again for the info. In the pic, what intake is used? is it the Edelbrock 4500 super vic, 2970 i think ?
Are you able to get the required area through the pushrod pinch with the dart casting or do you weld/epoxy?
Any issues hitting water under the ssr? I heard the darts can get thin when the ssr is shaped correctly. |
more Info and Pics->
Chad and Dr J have a lot of Info on ProFiler SBC210
that looks pretty good and another alternative to Dart Pro-1
http://www.1320techtalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=1586
another alternative is World Products 235cc
i Ported a pair pretty much all-out 2.125/1.600 +.200 long Valves
for a Customer's 434sbc, but they didn't Dyno test
it on my Dyno, they Dynoed it on a DTS.
made 740's Peak HP between 7500-7600 was what i was told,
and they only made 5 Pulls,
changed the Timing 2 times,
didn't try to really get more HP out of it 
UnPorted Out-the-Box WP-235CC
here's a few Pics of another new Pair of those Heads with my homemade Calipers
i use to check Short Turn Curve Thickness
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maxracesoftware
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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maxracesoftware
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Edelbrock Super Victor #2970 for those WP-235CC Heads
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Fatman
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 863
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: - |
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"under Carb Bore is Cylinders 1 & 3
so Cylinders 1 & 3 can easily share or get CFM flow out the
Carb Throttle Bores across from Cylinders 6 & 8
but from Cyl 5 & 7 and 2 & 4 , its partially blocked by the Cloverleaf wall
as you go around the "perimeter "
1 pair of cylinders Carb Throttle Bore Airflow
will always be partially blocked to its neighbor "
I see what you are saying but i thought this would not be a problem if the cloverleaf was blended out as you approached the runners. especially considering the carb pad is so high.
Thanks for being so free with your information. i'm sure many appreciate it. |
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maxracesoftware
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1934
Location: Abbeville, LA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Fatman wrote: | "under Carb Bore is Cylinders 1 & 3
so Cylinders 1 & 3 can easily share or get CFM flow out the
Carb Throttle Bores across from Cylinders 6 & 8
but from Cyl 5 & 7 and 2 & 4 , its partially blocked by the Cloverleaf wall
as you go around the "perimeter "
1 pair of cylinders Carb Throttle Bore Airflow
will always be partially blocked to its neighbor "
I see what you are saying but i thought this would not be a problem if the cloverleaf was blended out as you approached the runners. especially considering the carb pad is so high.
Thanks for being so free with your information. i'm sure many appreciate it. |
referrencing from
or looking from Cyl pair 1 & 3 under Carb Throttle Bore
not so much Cyl 2 & 4 are partially blocked
but more blocked are Cyl 5&7 from Cyl 1&3 because of
Throttle blades slightly sticking out a little adds to CFM loss
( more so if it were a 4150 instead of a 4500 )
and it goes all around the Perimeter like that
if you move the Carb further upwards,
you can use more Cloverleaf but usually loose signal as you go up
and low end TQ
anyways, removing the Cloverleaf on stuff i do works for me !
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cspeier
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Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 504
Location: Hays Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I for one appreciate Larry taking the time to post this valuable info!
They broke the mold with Larry Meaux, that I know! |
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Fatman
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 863
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: - |
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OK, I believe you Larry 
With regards to the WP235 head, is there enough material in the chamber to enable a nice transition between the crown and chamber. It looks rather flat, especially in the 'beak' between the intake and ex inserts on the spark plug side. |
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maxracesoftware
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Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1934
Location: Abbeville, LA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:29 pm Post subject: Re: - |
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| Fatman wrote: | OK, I believe you Larry
With regards to the WP235 head, is there enough material in the chamber to enable a nice transition between the crown and chamber. It looks rather flat, especially in the 'beak' between the intake and ex inserts on the spark plug side. |
yes its way too flat around both the intake and exhaust seats !!!
and worse, the exh seat inserts stick out above the Chamber surfaces.
but i just "Sink" the Valve Job on both Int & Exh sides
plenty enough to get a much better Bowl-to-VJ-to-Chamber transition
then come back an hand blend VJ top cuts into Chamber
Sinking the VJ w/+.200 long valves ends up just about right
for enough Installed Height for the Cams we use.
39/45seat/60/75 then blend 30deg int back cut on valve
Radius exh valve job
another thing was the Intake Seat insert's width,
.... i wish it was a lot thicker.
by the time you cut the Intake seat for 2.125 Valve plus sink it to get
a better transition along with more installed height,
it needs a thicker seat insert there , but no problems so far from that,
as those Heads make excellent HP
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Fatman
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 863
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:32 pm Post subject: - |
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Larry
Do you blend the 75 onto the bowl or leave a sharp transition from bowl to 75?
I have seem some valve jobs where the 75 was basically hand blended out and turned into a radius, then there was a definite transition between this radius and the 60 deg. the rest was left sharp. So it turned out to be 38/45/60/radius into bowl.
Last edited by Fatman on Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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maxracesoftware
Guru
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 1934
Location: Abbeville, LA
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: - |
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| Fatman wrote: | Larry
Do you blend the 75 onto the bowl or leave a sharp transition from bowl to 75? |
blend some of the lower 75 into the bowl
| Quote: | 39/45seat/60/75 then blend 30deg int back cut on valve
Radius exh valve job |
should actually read->
39/45seat/60/75 then blend into Bowl
30deg int back cut on valve
( i'm not blending intake valve backcut as it might read to some )
the 30deg int valve backcut is sharp
Radius exh valve job
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slow stang
New Member
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| lots of good info here,thanks |
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raynorshine
Member
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Posts: 97
Location: BC, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: thank you |
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great info, thanks for sharing Larry  |
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