Self Driving Car Service

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mk e
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Self Driving Car Service

Post by mk e » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:42 am

Not an electric powered car, but but electric driven. Goolge's Waymo has officially launched a self driving ride hailing service....sort of. Its still a pilot so the members are select beta testers and for now there is still a human sitting in front watching what's going on....but WOW!

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/waym ... 38574.html
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Newold1 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:37 pm

I am still a serious cynic and I am scratching my head on the reasonable term proof of the success and safety of computer artificial intelligence driven cars on today's streets, highways and interstates WHY??

I believe at this point in history and in the reasonable future providing a car that can instantly adjust and figure out in advance of an accident what thousands of drivers are going to do with their vehicle while they are driving said vehicle is flat crazy and possibly almost impossible! WHY??

Because :

1.There are so many improperly trained drivers in vehicles driving every moment of the day and night!
2. There are so many distracted drivers texting, reading and using their cell phones and devices that keep massive amounts of drivers not paying attention moment to moment in their cars when driving!!
3. There are so many drivers out taking driving trips in totally dangerous weather conditions at speeds that no vehicle should be transiting in, many with poorly maintained vehicles with bad brakes, inoperative head and tail lights or turn signals and bald or under inflated and defective tires!!
4. So many drivers make so many crazy spontaneous moves and unexplainable actions that are not really predictable with logic or intelligence!!
5. Many accidents in progress change safe and proper driving conditions for any vehicle instantly exposed to those accidents.
6. Certain unforecast or unforseen weather events and changes drop trees, rock and mudslides, debris off of truck and vehicles onto the roadways.

SHOULD I GO ON?? SHIT NO! :roll:

I think you all get my point, it ain't time yet for autonomous self driven vehicles on our wonderful SAFE? streets, highways and interstates!! JMHO
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by PackardV8 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:01 pm

Newold1, you sort of disproved your own point. The computer driven vehicle has several sensors looking 360-degrees a hundred times a second; that's got to be an order of magnitude better at operating said vehicle than the incompetent/distracted/impaired humans you cite.
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Newold1 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:47 pm

I understand the the power of the computer and it's ability to REACT instantly, however I can also say that.there are times that I have avoided accidents because I was practicing a form of defensive driving during which I was observing an accident before it happened and made a change in my speed, location or driving style and sure enough if I had not made that sometimes very subtle change the accident would have happened. Sort of a gut instinct that some other good driver's must also feel and react to.

I am not sure with current autonomous driven car that level of experience and ability for a "gut" feel is there now or in the near future in ALL driving conditions and situations.

Yes, I am not the perfect driver but in about 50 years of heavy driving of 25K to 50K miles of driving per year in heavy interstate and large city driving I have had 0 accidents that we're caused by me and I will involved in only 2 where someone else hit me (minor). I can't keep track or recount how many accidents I avoided from this 6th sense for seeing the potential and avoiding an accident while driving. When all autonomous self driving cars have this gut sense, preception and added ability then I will accept and feel safe sharing the road with them.

Most driving today is not safe! It's much safer to fly!!

So why should I feel safer knowing a special vehicle is on the roads that currently or in the near future can and may make driving even a little unsafer! Sorry but I for one am not happy about that!
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by mk e » Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:27 pm

I read an article saying the biggest issue with self driving cars is other drivers realizing the AI system MUST ALWAYS make the safe choice.....so you can pull out in front of them, or cut them off, or walk out in front of them knowing they must brake for your stupidity. Going cross town in say NYC would take double the time as a result of the car on;y making legal and safe choices.
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by gruntguru » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:48 pm

mk e wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:27 pm
I read an article saying the biggest issue with self driving cars is other drivers realizing the AI system MUST ALWAYS make the safe choice.....so you can pull out in front of them, or cut them off, or walk out in front of them knowing they must brake for your stupidity. Going cross town in say NYC would take double the time as a result of the car on;y making legal and safe choices.
That sounds like a problem that's easy to solve. AVs are bristling with cameras and computers. Any idiot trying to play chicken will be recorded. You can work out the rest.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by gruntguru » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:37 pm
I am still a serious cynic and I am scratching my head on the reasonable term proof of the success and safety of computer artificial intelligence driven cars on today's streets, highways and interstates WHY??

I believe at this point in history and in the reasonable future providing a car that can instantly adjust and figure out in advance of an accident what thousands of drivers are going to do with their vehicle while they are driving said vehicle is flat crazy and possibly almost impossible! WHY??

Because :

1.There are so many improperly trained drivers in vehicles driving every moment of the day and night!
2. There are so many distracted drivers texting, reading and using their cell phones and devices that keep massive amounts of drivers not paying attention moment to moment in their cars when driving!!
3. There are so many drivers out taking driving trips in totally dangerous weather conditions at speeds that no vehicle should be transiting in, many with poorly maintained vehicles with bad brakes, inoperative head and tail lights or turn signals and bald or under inflated and defective tires!!
4. So many drivers make so many crazy spontaneous moves and unexplainable actions that are not really predictable with logic or intelligence!!
5. Many accidents in progress change safe and proper driving conditions for any vehicle instantly exposed to those accidents.
6. Certain unforecast or unforseen weather events and changes drop trees, rock and mudslides, debris off of truck and vehicles onto the roadways.

SHOULD I GO ON?? SHIT NO! :roll:

I think you all get my point, it ain't time yet for autonomous self driven vehicles on our wonderful SAFE? streets, highways and interstates!! JMHO
Statistics will prove you wrong. Legislators won't be allowing AV's into the showrooms until they are ten times safer than what's already on the road (human drivers). Not to mention the auto-makers, they all have legal departments and the liability when an AV makes a bad decision and kills someone will rest with the manufacturer.

The crux of the matter is this - humans are pretty bad drivers. It won't take much to make our roads much much safer.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by mk e » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:35 am

gruntguru wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:55 pm

Legislators won't be allowing AV's into the showrooms until they are ten times safer than what's already on the road (human drivers). Not to mention the auto-makers, they all have legal departments and the liability when an AV makes a bad decision and kills someone will rest with the manufacturer.

The crux of the matter is this - humans are pretty bad drivers. It won't take much to make our roads much much safer.
Maybe, but their are already laws requiring cars to have computer assisted features like antilock brakes and stability control. Most cars are now advertising their auto brake features which are likely to be mandatory soon. Then the high end cars like Tesla and Cadillac already have auto drive features and mid level cars have simpler lane assist features.

I can't imagine it will be more than 5 or 10 years before pretty much any car can be ordered with an autodrive feature.
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Newold1 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:36 am

If the developers and manufacturers can deliver AV's that can be as safe or safer than a good current safe driver , deliver an AV with a decent MSRP and the insurance companies will markedly reduce the cost of the auto insurance on an AV then I might consider the change and investment. If we re supposed to fund a great deal of the expense of integrating this new technology and receive no real benefit then I for one am still not IN!
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Nefario » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:25 pm

mk e wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:27 pm
I read an article saying the biggest issue with self driving cars is other drivers realizing the AI system MUST ALWAYS make the safe choice.....
I've read about the next step of, does the vehicle make ethical judgements?? Does it smash into an offending family minivan or deviate, endangering it's own single occupant? And who pays? I might see autonomous vehicles on standardized roadways like interstates but not cities.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by PackardV8 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:39 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:36 am
I can't keep track or recount how many accidents I avoided from this 6th sense for seeing the potential and avoiding an accident while driving. When all autonomous self driving cars have this gut sense, preception and added ability then I will accept and feel safe sharing the road with them. . . . If the developers and manufacturers can deliver AV's that can be as safe or safer than a good current safe driver
You keep arguing against your own point. The AVs undergoing testing have already been proven saver than a current safe driver. You've gone on at length illustrating what bad drivers most are, how distracted, how impaired; how only your prescience has saved you from numerous fatal accidents. How can you accept and feel safe sharing the road with these deeply flawed and failure-prone human drivers? To say self-driving cars have to be be prescient in order to improve the general level of safety on the road is a personal opinion, not based upon any logic, but just a gut-level reaction.

My experience says bring 'em on, sooner rather than later. A prediction; they'll be pissing off some of us more often than not, because they obey the speed limits, traffic laws, stop signs and lights. We humans basically ignore these suggestions and roll the dice based upon our past experience of how often we've gotten away with it. Most drivers confuse motion with progress, changing lanes on a whim. That's a computation they won't make.

I base the above on actually having ridden in an AV. It was the slowest, most boring ride I've ever had in a car. The programming is always an overabundance of caution. However, since most drivers are already engrossed in their "mobile device" screen, they're ready to just relax and go with the flow of electrons.
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by FC-Pilot » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:15 am

Nefario wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:25 pm
mk e wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:27 pm
I read an article saying the biggest issue with self driving cars is other drivers realizing the AI system MUST ALWAYS make the safe choice.....
I've read about the next step of, does the vehicle make ethical judgements?? Does it smash into an offending family minivan or deviate, endangering it's own single occupant? And who pays? I might see autonomous vehicles on standardized roadways like interstates but not cities.
Don't worry, I personally know of one manufacturer who uses a system that when it detects it will not stop in time, it releases all brake pressure and slams into the object with full force. They are trying to upgrade their system, but bean counters are just telling them to program the system they have better. LOL

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by FC-Pilot » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:30 am

mk e wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:27 pm
I read an article saying the biggest issue with self driving cars is other drivers realizing the AI system MUST ALWAYS make the safe choice.....so you can pull out in front of them, or cut them off, or walk out in front of them knowing they must brake for your stupidity. Going cross town in say NYC would take double the time as a result of the car on;y making legal and safe choices.
I helped do some data collection for AV programming in NYC. I see many issues that will cause problems. One is in many areas the painted lines have disappeared due to traffic driving on them from the constant adjustments do to vehicles pulled over on either (or both) sides of the road. The second is how the flow of traffic as a whole "breaks the law" together to provide a safe driving environment. Third is the "safe allowable space" that we typically use is non existent in NYC and other major cities like it. Any allowance for "safe space" is quickly taken up by another vehicle. I can't imagine how the programming engineers are going to deal with the bike traffic that holds onto your mirror as you are heading down the road. LOL I look forward to seeing how that one plays out. There is another theory of using GPS, but with the tall buildings GPS signal is splotchy at best.

It will be a very tall order, but I am sure the pressure that is being put on them will help them find a way to get it done. I prefer to drive myself, but there are many on the road I would like to see in the back seat of a AV instead of having them in the driver seat. There is a reason the first AV pilot testing took place on the western side of the country as the driving patterns are more predictable and the street systems are more squared off and symmetrical.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Newold1 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:51 am

I for one am not yet behind autonomous driven cars.

I admit there are a ton of drivers out there on the road who can't FRICK'EN drive!

I wonder how these new self driving cars react to a horn honking, I doubt it because the major groups of young computer coders writing the programs DON"T DRIVE . They don't know what a car horn is. But think about how many times in your years of driving you or others in many cases use the horn blast to make a situation safer.

I am starting to develop an adversity to a lot of aspects of Artificial Intelligence too! IN some regards we need to allow time to the change over and implementation of these new technologies and I get worried that a lot of people in pursuit of business, profit and control can rush a lot of other uninformed and clueless people into unhealthy situations in the rush to be "SO COOL" with all the new AI.

I am starting to think that we all need to be careful in the rush to embrace AI and start to study, analyse and understand the pitfalls that will develop to the point that we might want to be careful that Artificial Intelligence does not become Artificial Ignorance!!
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by FC-Pilot » Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:17 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:51 am
the major groups of young computer coders writing the programs DON"T DRIVE .
All the engineers and programmers that I have and do work with all drive. In fact many have been through performance driving instruction and may are involved in racing programs. All the OEM's I have worked with had engineers that drove to evaluate what changes were being made. I have not worked with all OEM's, but have been lucky enough to work with many. It is going to take a fair amount of time, but the future is coming.

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