AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post photos/videos of anything* you own - Or, ask to see something.

Moderator: Team

Carnut1
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3216
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:32 pm
Location: Melbourne fl.

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by Carnut1 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:57 pm

Overall I like the engineering this engine has but not a fan of the windowed main web. Sure at stock displacement it would be fine but after a serious bore, custom welded stroker, ported heads, oversized valves, custom tunnel ram, much higher rpm and horsepower than the original engineers ever dreamed of I am not so sure. Pushing limits is what it is all about. Love it!
Servedio Cylinder Head Development
631-816-4911
9:00am - 9:00pm EST

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:10 pm

Having much to say about the topic of block filler, but not having any refined text to make this presentation, please pardon apparent lack of proper chronological order in the following description of the process.

Basic concepts: Why?

*maximum overbored cylinders:

(considering about .1725" remaining thickness) need re-strengthening to re-gain their structural rigidity

This is for 'best case scenario' ring seal while the engine runs through it's max volumetric efficiency range of rpm, and of course, during 'over-reving' when there is maximum mechanical stress inducing flex of the cylinder walls due to 'piston slap'... where the numerically lower rod ratio engine imparts greater impact load on the thrust side of the cylinder bores -a typical feature of max stroke geometry (when the engine is re-designed to use more stroke)

Ring seal quality is paramount to making best compression, to make max power.

*reducing vibration for the entire running engine:

This is another less frequently discussed aspect of extracting more power out of any engine; hence, reducing vibration is a 'power secret'.

The block assembly itself is the primary mass which absorbs and dissipates vibration.

Vibration is motion.

All motion requires energy to move; it has to come from somewhere.

All motion not transmitted to the output flange of the crankshaft is 'lost motion' -another form of parasitic loss.

So all efforts to stiffen the block, and all efforts to eliminate vibration, is like sealing a leaky water pipe so more energy in the water will flow out the end of the pipe instead where it's supposed to.

This is partly why, in theory, a 'big block' will make more power than a 'small block' when both have the same CID.

Another way of saying the same thing is 'reducing bad harmonics' -text here, long enough to explain interaction of harmonic frequencies, is left to other sources, for sake of brevity in this article.

Man! there is no better power-to-weight-ratio-oriented-strategic place to add vibration resistant strengthening mass than in between the bottoms of the cylinder bores and the main webs of the engine? ...and around the camshaft gallery to endure higher valve spring loads?

*Why use 'grout' for block filler? ...it sounds dumb, or low tech.

I'd rather use a block filler with a name that sounds more high tech? -Nope!

'Bonded sand' is what they use to make 'casting cores' for iron castings in the first place.

After 'deep cleaning' the water jacket areas with careful muriatic acid rinse and pressure washing, with all welch plugs removed, the block is made ready for filler install, nice and clean, leveled with a straight edge, to 'pour' one bank at a time.

More text on same topic in next comment. On this block, the rear welch plugs are the lowest level. Here's another pic:

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:31 pm

For clarity, undesirable vibration aka 'bad harmonics' cancellation advocates block filler install.

(we certainly want the good vibrations of combustion transferred to the crank!)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...moving on with the subtopic... I'm a trained mason's apprentice.

As a mason, I know there is a limited amount of time before the chemical reaction of cement and water begins to cure ('stiffen up'), at which point, the 'mud' will need more water mixed in to retain 'workability'.

-absolute rule in all masonry work: more water in the 'mud' mix = weaker product

Why? -because the water evaporates; too much water evaporation and the cured 'mud' will shrink and begin to pull apart, forming cracks.

So we want to mix 'the mud' with the least amount of water possible with respect for it's workability.

In this case, the block filler 'grout' needs only enough water to settle into the water jacket and rest in the bottom of the cavity area.

-a soupy mix is not good; it should not be easily poured through a funnel.

Rather expect to tap on the side of a funnel with a stick of wood -to simulate vibration, to ease the flow of grout into the cavity.

If your block filler mix is too soupy, by accidentally mixing in too much water (very common/easy mistake) this means it needs more sand and cement added to thicken it back up.

At this point, I think I'll stop and resume in next comment by adding another sub topic telling some about masonry mixes.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:48 pm

Maybe a general description of what is called 'concrete' can be helpful to understand what is meant by the term 'grout'.

(helps to understand why some interchange the word 'grout' with 'block filler')

All masonry products are a combination of cement and aggregate.

Cement is 'the binder' and aggregate is 'the filler material' (some type of stone or 'man made' stone like brick, cast concrete, or glass blocks etc)

Cement + aggregate = 'concrete'.

Cement = 'portland' -regardless of color (white portland is generally called 'masonry' -but is the same product/gray or white portland does the same thing; it's the binder or cement; it's what 'glues' the aggregate together. Portland is weak; only use enough to get the desired ratio for the mix.

Larger proportions of portland (the cement/binding agent) or water make the product weak; 'the strength' of any type of concrete product comes from the size of the aggregate.

-The size of the aggregate, indicates how strong the concrete will be (rated in psi.)

-The size of the aggregate selected, reflects the purpose it will be used for; basically the larger the fill area, the larger the aggregate.

In most cases, a finer mixture (cement + sand) is used as a filler type of bonding agent, as 'mortar' would be used to bond and fill the spaces between bricks.

These finer mixes of cement and sand to bond and fill smaller areas are generally called 'grout' or 'mortar' -the difference is the size of the aggregate; grout has smaller grains of sand & mortar is made using larger grains of sand.

For every type of 'mortar' (such as grout, plaster, 'mud' or other jargon term) a careful ratio of cement and sand and water is mixed together -by saying 'careful ratio' I mean 'how it feels' on trowel: too much cement in the mix and the mortar or grout will 'feel too sticky' & it will stick to the trowel. Too little cement and the mix will easily fall off the trowel. Either way, the mix is less easy to work with, and generally guarantees a poorer result when it cures. (either way, if the mix ratio is 'wrong', whatever size the sand grains are, when the 'mud' cures it'll be weak... how to say it right...

The basic way I was taught is to 'go by feel': mix the sand, cement and water thoroughly, then 'feel it' slide off the trowel -it should 'feel' somewhere in between super sticky clay and 'loose as a goose' wet sand -it should gradually slide off the trowel (and fall back into your mixing bucket) when it's trowel tested.

...if it's 'soupy'... that's (profane words go here)... junk. That'll have too much water in it and it will most likely, almost absolutely guaranteed, shrink by evaporation and crack when it cures.

So you don't want to pour in a soupy mix into your block. That's junk. NOT correct. NOT 'best' way to do it etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------

So... even though I think I'm a know-it-all when it comes to masonry products, I went ahead and bought an aftermarket 'block filler' instead... hoping there'd be some secret ingredient I don't know about in the proprietary mix.

I bought a jug of Moroso block filler from an eBay vendor. ($20 -no big deal/petty cost)

As delivered, the jug I bought was half full (?) ...hmm... seems like somebody used some already?

Indeed; Moroso block filler is a masonry product.

Anyway... so I poured the contents into a clean bucket for examination.

Appeared to have very fine sand aggregate with a larger proportion of binder agent.

In my estimate = a weak grout (super fine sand grains + too much cement... by my training and 'book smarts' anyway)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Then I knew what to expect from the Moroso product and began to prepare my tools and workspace for the task at hand... including a spare bags of fine 'play sand' and ordinary portland cement to make more (in case the half full jug was not enough) or to adjust 'the feel' of the mix when doing 'the bucket and trowel test' (noticing the 'feel' of the mix as it slides off the trowel into the mixing bucket)

Preparing the workspace and getting all appropriate tools ready to use is very important to do your 'best' block filler installation because there's only a limited amount of time before the 'mud' begins to cure (and becomes unworkable... or needing more water mixed in which makes it weak) -fresh mix is 'best'.

Settin' up my tools... planning to take the plunge (and ruin the rare block?)... Next pic:

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:08 pm

Showing drill powered 'spade' (these propeller like devices are primarily sold for mixing paint) to mix water into the proprietary Moroso block filler product.

As a mason's apprentice, I was trained 'more is better' when mixing 'mud'.

Only add small amounts of water. It may seem too dry at first, but keep mixing.

If you add too much water, and the block filler mix becomes too soupy, add more dry portland cement and dry fine grade sand (approx. one scoop of portland cement to 3 scoops of sand -about 3 to 1 IMO) to bring the soup back into a thicker consistency... for block filler, there is a fine line between what is too thick and what is thin enough to enable some 'pouring' action... how to say it right.... (still, for any masonry mix; the less water in the mix, the better)

Always use clean bucket, clean water, etc: you want no 'trash' in the mix. I used distilled water for highest purity to promote 'best' chemical bonding.

The cured mixture will be stronger, with less likelihood of cracks formation, if it's not poured in like watered down pea soup.

Next pic:

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:43 am

Carnut1 wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:57 pm
Overall I like the engineering this engine has but not a fan of the windowed main web...
Thank you for your keen observations.

As far as I know, only the 4bbl 327 Rambler V8 blocks came with solid main webs (non-windowed) -all other 250, 287 and 327 2bbl blocks feature the windowed main design.

The closest design competitor for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8 crank gallery design architecture is '53-up Buick Nailhead V8 which has even larger windowed areas in the same locations.

The real missing meat of this topic is how much excess weight most other V8 blocks were wearing in the early fifties when US V8 designs were overtaking the marketplace to establish their position as the most well favored engine design of all time.

I try to avoid 'finger pointing' while advocating American Motors products because, as I understand it, 'finger pointing' is not good psychology -it's some type of 'bully tactic' ...or a method used for self-justification which I tend to find anti-magnetic...

...even replusive... (eg: most mainstream TV news articles)

But in reality, the truth we discover by comparing Rambler V8 design to many other US V8 designs in the early fifties is that is was about 100 lbs. lighter than most of it's competition.

Moreover, in truth, we see AM's Rambler V8 is routinely saddled to carry an overweight reputation when those several 'other make' V8 engine designs are not plagued by the same denigrating bully tactic used to smear the engine's popularity in the minds of John Q. Public.

-The 'smear tactics' became a scientific method by Edward Bernay's book named "Propoganda". Prior to E.B's book, disinformation methodology was not so widespread.

Back to 'brass tacks', the windowed main web design illustrates knowledge that 'the upstroke' portion of the reciprocating movement is less important than the 'downstroke' portion.

Back to basics again, isn't it clearly understood that the downstroke motion is where the power transmitted through the piston and rod assembly impacts the 'bottom end' of the engine block's main web design?

Hence, it almost appears to be 'finger pointing' all over again just to describe 'other make' engines that do not incorporate a well gusseted 'deep skirt' crank gallery into their design -assuring there is more iron meat, underneath the crank, where the block needs meat most.

So I'm not harping on it.

If I did ...get duped into a tit-for-tat debate, arguing pros and cons about good and bad windowed main vs non-windowed main vs non deep skirt designed V8 engine blocks... as I see it (!) there are at least two other engine block designs that would not evade scrutiny:

1) The new Chevrolet LS V8 engine block design features 'deep skirt' crank gallery design (having mainweb 'meat' underneath the crank where it should be instead)

2) The Buick 455 windowed main block design is... arguably the #1 source of windowed main bad reputation because the main web design in that block is measurably thin in nearly every dimension and features no underbracing underneath the crank but the main caps themselves, which almost appear to free standing, not even possessing beefy side-to-side iron support that can be readily noticed in other non-deep skirt V8 crank gallery designs.

The end result, by making all comparisons, again makes Rambler V8 crank gallery design look good... but only if we are able to strip away the pre-formed stereotypical ideals? most people regard as the one-and-only good way to do it... as if a non-deep skirt block design does not look like Jack-the-Ripper stole the bottom end gusseting for the main webs.

Jack-the-Ripper? ...whatever.

I am hoping that some people will 'get it' though and see the positive attribute of the well gussted deep skirt crank gallery design instead.
--------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the comment and back to show and tell about block filler installation please!
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:53 pm

So... yeah the block filler installation strengthens the overbored cylinder walls, cancels bad harmonics and some of the doubt for this 2bbl block's lighter weight windowed main web design.

Since I'm a trained mason, I already had preferences for tools I used to do this task:

-2" x 4" x 6" sponge (to wipe away splattered 'mud' -a 'clean up' tool)

-5 gallon bucket (to mix the 'mud', portable container)

-drill with 'spade mixer' attachment

-assortment of small trowels

-DIY putty spatulas

-towels for 'clean up'

-vibration tools

...and air chuck/compressed air to blow out accidental 'mud' into head bolt holes etc.
and many DIY shaped wire picks, screwdrivers etc. to reach inside the water jacket and help put the 'grout' where I want it to go and scrape it away where I did not want it to go.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a picture of when I had the driver side bank full of 'mud' and began vibration:

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:27 pm

I learned the concept of masonry vibration while working at a 'cast concrete' factory.

The vibration tools we used are commonly called 'the snake'; the tool basically looks like an ordinary hand drill but it has a 1" thick two foot long flexible 'wand' hang off the end where the drill chuck should be.

-when you run the drill the end of the wand vibrates.

-when you touch the cast concrete product with the vibrating tool... you can see all the air bubbles rise to the surface while the casting is wet in the mold.

Come to find out, there are various types of vibration tools 'the real pros' use to make a better masonry product -such as the slab of a building.

Vibration should be your construction textbook in the chapter on masonry.

Vibration settles the aggregate in the masonry mixture and purges air bubbles to make the fully cured product much stronger.

Another benefit is the vibration tends to shake the excess water out of the uncured mix, and one can see water rise to the top, along with the air bubbles.

You don't want the excess water in the block filler or the air bubbles; the water pockets will dry out and form air pockets & wherever there are air pockets this will be a weak spot in the cured product.

No doubt about it, when vibration can be used in masonry construction, the cured product will have higher density and be much more resistant to cracking.

So definitely yes; if you are going to install a 'grout' type block filler, IMO -use vibration.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't own a 'snake' so at first, I was using an old wore out angle grinder for a vibrating tool (it would vibrate real bad so quit using it for the safety hazard)

I ran that vibration tool until it began to smoke and quit running (laughing to myself)

...then I realized I could use a retired non-functional cheapie air compressor to continue the vibration process (!) one of those loud 'buzzy' air compressors... hee hee hee ...but it works/some vibration is better than nothing. (use what you got) Here's a pic of that:

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:39 pm

Even though masonry products seem to solidify rather quick, actually they don't.

The block filler will keep curing for about 8 hrs. (overnight)

The next day... it's 'done'. = that's how it's gonna be for a long long time.

So while I fiendishly continued using wire picks to clean off the cylinder walls inside the water jacket, I just let the buzzy air compressor keep running as long as I could tolerate the noise.

(I used vibration for about two and one half hours) and it got dark outside...

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:51 pm

I let each bank cure individually for about thirty days, before doing anything else with the block.

Doing each bank took me about one whole day start to finish -not stopping until I was totally satisfied the block filler was all cleaned up/to do the very best job I could possibly do.

(kind'of a marathon type task IMO... don't have anything else to do that day -reserve one whole day to do each bank)

So I let my block filler installation cure about six weeks before I took the block to the machine shop to have it bored out.

That way, I knew for sure, the block filler was nice and hard, to get 'straight' fresh bores.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:59 pm

Here's a few more pics I took while examining the aftereffects:

Image

One may notice I paid lots of attention to keeping the sides of the cylinder walls clean inside the water jacket.

Here's looking in through a welch plug hole:

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:02 pm

Sorry images came out reversed order (haven't quite figured that out yet...)

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:05 pm

Next welch plug:

Image

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:12 pm

Noticed curious feature illustrating how AM engineers ran the oil output passageway from the oil filter through the water jacket, apparently for thermal stability/heat transfer...
Image
Image
Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

User avatar
amcenthusiast
Member
Member
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:56 am
Location: Central Texas
Contact:

Re: AMC 327 - 443 XRV8

Post by amcenthusiast » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:52 pm

At this point, having described work done to block, it seems appropriate to show and tell about what goes into the block: the rotating assembly.

...now, it's gonna get real ugly before it begins to look better...

I like to keep on eye on the end result, but the weird thing about this was, I could not visualize the completed crankshaft ... making this was like walking through a tunnel, not knowing how it will look on the other side.

XRV8 RP precision internal balanced custom welded stroker crankshaft for 443 XRV8 engine:
Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
XRV8 Race Parts > for AM's '56-'67 Rambler V8: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/favorite_links.html

Post Reply