Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

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GRTfast
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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm
And i pray that you will forgive me of any harsh words i may have spoken. My temper gets the better of me sometimes.
Brian
No problems man, I have a thick skin, I doubt you can say anything to truly offend me. I ask that you give me the same consideration, I am passionate about many of these topics, and I enjoy discussing them. I can be a bit of a dick sometimes, this is an undisputed fact! :lol:

I don't take anything said here too personally. I study the laws of thought, and I study the philosophy of argument (mainly deductive), and enjoy putting my knowledge/skills to the test in settings like this forum from time to time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_thought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by j-c-c » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:11 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm
And i pray that you will forgive me of any harsh words i may have spoken. My temper gets the better of me sometimes.
Brian
No problems man, I have a thick skin, I doubt you can say anything to truly offend me. I ask that you give me the same consideration, I am passionate about many of these topics, and I enjoy discussing them. I can be a bit of a dick sometimes, this is an undisputed fact! :lol:

I don't take anything said here too personally. I study the laws of thought, and I study the philosophy of argument (mainly deductive), and enjoy putting my knowledge/skills to the test in settings like this forum from time to time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_thought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
Bull, I think you are an internet masochist and Exhaustgas is your enabler. :lol: :lol:

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:19 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:11 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:56 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm
And i pray that you will forgive me of any harsh words i may have spoken. My temper gets the better of me sometimes.
Brian
No problems man, I have a thick skin, I doubt you can say anything to truly offend me. I ask that you give me the same consideration, I am passionate about many of these topics, and I enjoy discussing them. I can be a bit of a dick sometimes, this is an undisputed fact! :lol:

I don't take anything said here too personally. I study the laws of thought, and I study the philosophy of argument (mainly deductive), and enjoy putting my knowledge/skills to the test in settings like this forum from time to time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_thought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument
Bull, I think you are an internet masochist and Exhaustgas is your enabler. :lol: :lol:
You might be right. Lol

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by exhaustgases » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:56 am

I like being picked on because of logic. Demoncrats hate logic, and truth. The climate change religion is the ultimate atheist religion and to thrive no almighty god can exist. Because in the demoncrat climate religion rule book only the demoncrats can cure climate change. Yup just follow them and in a few years all the sky dumping will end, and the atmospheric heaters will be turned off, and everything will be great, no worries, at least climate and weather wise.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:47 am

exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:56 am
I like being picked on because of logic. Demoncrats hate logic, and truth. The climate change religion is the ultimate atheist religion and to thrive no almighty god can exist.
Why don't you use some of this "logic" you claim to be so familiar with to successfully argue that a god exists? If you are such a master of logic, you should be able to make a solid argument that is free of circular reasoning and logical fallacies. You should be able to make an argument for god that is both valid and sound. Let's have it.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by j-c-c » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:58 am

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:47 am
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:56 am
I like being picked on because of logic. Demoncrats hate logic, and truth. The climate change religion is the ultimate atheist religion and to thrive no almighty god can exist.
Why don't you use some of this "logic" you claim to be so familiar with to successfully argue that a god exists? If you are such a master of logic, you should be able to make a solid argument that is free of circular reasoning and logical fallacies. You should be able to make an argument for god that is both valid and sound. Let's have it.
Sounds like a logical request to me.

So ExhaustGas, strut your stuff for all to see.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by n2xlr8n » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:09 am

David Redszus wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm

You attempt to blend science with faith based systems; they are not compatible in any way. A scientist can believe in any god they might choose, or a religous individual can believe in any science they choose, or not. They are unrelated.
This. I don't attempt to mix the two, nor do the many other scientists and engineers I've worked with; some academics, some regular folk. I've a lot of respect for you David, despite our not knowing each other formally.
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm
The horrors of the 20th century were brought to the world by religious men with an avowed moral purpose; didn't work out that way.
I've often said a similar thing to my wife- that "The Church" has turned more away from Christianity than many realize due to the disobedience and legalism within.
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm
Scientific atheism remains the proper intellectual position until such time as can be proven, not merely alleged, otherwise.
Having spent the majority of my career in academia, I'd agree that many are apprehensive about sharing their faith (the exception being the faithless- they are not reticent about proclaiming the absence of proof of God). The Jewish contribution to science cannot be understated, but often one has to dig to find their POV, and those I've read are rather ambiguous.
He who is in me is greater than he who is in the world.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by David Redszus » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:04 pm

n2xlr8n wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:09 am
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm

You attempt to blend science with faith based systems; they are not compatible in any way. A scientist can believe in any god they might choose, or a religous individual can believe in any science they choose, or not. They are unrelated.
This. I don't attempt to mix the two, nor do the many other scientists and engineers I've worked with; some academics, some regular folk. I've a lot of respect for you David, despite our not knowing each other formally.
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm
The horrors of the 20th century were brought to the world by religious men with an avowed moral purpose; didn't work out that way.
I've often said a similar thing to my wife- that "The Church" has turned more away from Christianity than many realize due to the disobedience and legalism within.
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm
Scientific atheism remains the proper intellectual position until such time as can be proven, not merely alleged, otherwise.
Having spent the majority of my career in academia, I'd agree that many are apprehensive about sharing their faith (the exception being the faithless- they are not reticent about proclaiming the absence of proof of God). The Jewish contribution to science cannot be understated, but often one has to dig to find their POV, and those I've read are rather ambiguous.
If religious affiliation is an indicator of scientific contribution then we must rank the Chinese at the top of the pole.
Stated religious affiliation and actual belief are very often very far apart, and always have been.

Atheists have outnumbered theists among men of science, by an order of magnitude. Historically, you were as apt to be persecuted for beliving in science as you were for believing in some religious faith. You could conceal your faith but not your science.

Some religious dogma requires a belief in an afterlife, some do not. How would a man of the cloth explain the physical process of an afterlife to a man of science?

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by Truckedup » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:36 pm

I'm quite spiritual but not in an organized religion sort of way...I don't feel the need for a holy man to explain it to me or read from old books, although some of the stories are interesting...
There was a British comedian who always finished his monologue with this statement. "Goodnight, thank you, and may your God go with you." Good advice....
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by Firedome8 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:39 pm

If some how civilization would restart with no memories of the past religion would have new dieties, but physics would remain unchanged.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by David Redszus » Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:46 pm

Firedome8 wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:39 pm
If some how civilization would restart with no memories of the past religion would have new dieties, but physics would remain unchanged.
Both god and physics have evolved over time, in directions few would have predicted.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by j-c-c » Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:52 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:58 am
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:47 am
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:56 am
I like being picked on because of logic. Demoncrats hate logic, and truth. The climate change religion is the ultimate atheist religion and to thrive no almighty god can exist.
Why don't you use some of this "logic" you claim to be so familiar with to successfully argue that a god exists? If you are such a master of logic, you should be able to make a solid argument that is free of circular reasoning and logical fallacies. You should be able to make an argument for god that is both valid and sound. Let's have it.
Sounds like a logical request to me.

So ExhaustGas, strut your stuff for all to see.
Crickets

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by exhaustgases » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:47 am
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:56 am
I like being picked on because of logic. Demoncrats hate logic, and truth. The climate change religion is the ultimate atheist religion and to thrive no almighty god can exist.
Why don't you use some of this "logic" you claim to be so familiar with to successfully argue that a god exists? If you are such a master of logic, you should be able to make a solid argument that is free of circular reasoning and logical fallacies. You should be able to make an argument for god that is both valid and sound. Let's have it.
Very simple. First which is more complicated, a complete human body, or the most complex computer system? And with all these loved thermodynamic laws and for that matter the laws that keep the moon cooking around the earth, who made those laws. Or did they come out of no where just like crap demoncrat laws do? Why does everything physical seem to obey some kind of rule? If it just jumped out of nothing there would be no set rules.
How many years before a chevrolet small block will evolve out of the ground from the dust? Now try to use some logic.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:16 pm

exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm

Very simple.
Yes, you replied... this is going to be awesome! I'm looking forward to a coherent and well thought out set of statements that comprise a valid and sound argument for the existence of god.
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
First which is more complicated, a complete human body, or the most complex computer system?
What does complexity have to do with anything? It certainly isn't how we recognize design. We recognize design by comparing it to what naturally occurs. You are lazily applying the argument from ignorance logical fallacy. "I don't understand why the universe is like this, therefore god.”

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... -Ignorance

Medium length read on the subject:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design

long read on the subject:

https://www.eskimo.com/~msharlow/philos ... design.pdf
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
And with all these loved thermodynamic laws and for that matter the laws that keep the moon cooking around the earth, who made those laws.
Why does it have to be a "who"? You’re invoking a being in your supposed logical argument. You can't include an assertion of the conclusion in the premise. #-o

This is circular reasoning, which is decidedly not a valid argument structure.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... -Reasoning
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
Or did they come out of no where...
This is an either/or fallacy. You are suggesting that either a "who" made the laws, or they came from nothing. Again, this is not logical, and does not make a valid argument.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... se-Dilemma
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
Why does everything physical seem to obey some kind of rule?
Good question, and the answer is worth investigating. Not knowing the answer doesn't mean "cause god done it". That is an argument from ignorance logical fallacy (see link above), which is (again) an invalid argument. A theme is forming here. Use your incredibly logical brain to see if you can spot it. :lol:
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
If it just jumped out of nothing there would be no set rules.
That is an unsupported claim, that you are incredibly unlikely to be able to demonstrate. Also, it is predicated (again) on an either/or fallacy.
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
How many years before a chevrolet small block will evolve out of the ground from the dust?
Engines do not reproduce through natural processes with random mutations that obey the laws of physics. This is false equivocation fallacy.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/too ... uivocation

No person with a 3rd grade understanding of evolution would try to make that argument. I guess your understanding is 2nd grade or earlier. :lol:
exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:35 pm
Now try to use some logic.
You first. :lol:

So far, you have made precisely zero logical arguments, and have consequently made zero arguments that are valid. In your attempt to do so, you invoked FOUR logical fallacies, and a few kore than once. That has to be some kind of record!!! You should be proud... err, uhh, ashamed? :shock:

Your grade at this point is an "F-"

I wonder if you realize how embarrassed you should be?

Try again.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by j-c-c » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:21 pm

Bueller? Bueller?

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