Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:38 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:38 am
in laymans terms, things wear down and wear out. Increasing entropy.
You left out some of the most important language in the law, either through ignorance or on purpose. I'll wager it is the former, but it doesn't matter.

The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease over time.

Do you see the parts in bold? Do you think the Earth is an isolated system? (Hint: It is not) There is a million mile in diameter fusion reactor about 90 million miles away, it's called the sun. It is bombarding the earth with about 1.74 x 10^17 watts of energy, constantly.

The second law in no way "topples" evolution. You are repeating straight up lies that you've either read or been told, undoubtedly from creationists and/or creationist sources.

I will do you a favor, and at least lead you to the "waterhole" of becoming less ignorant on the topic. It is up to you to drink. I will again wager that you won't, but again, it doesn't matter.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CF/CF001.html

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/about- ... termediate

From the first link:

Claim CF001:
The second law of thermodynamics says that everything tends toward disorder, making evolutionary development impossible.

Source:
Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pp. 38-46.


Response:
The second law of thermodynamics says no such thing. It says that heat will not spontaneously flow from a colder body to a warmer one or, equivalently, that total entropy (a measure of useful energy) in a closed system will not decrease. This does not prevent increasing order because

the earth is not a closed system; sunlight (with low entropy) shines on it and heat (with higher entropy) radiates off. This flow of energy, and the change in entropy that accompanies it, can and will power local decreases in entropy on earth.
entropy is not the same as disorder. Sometimes the two correspond, but sometimes order increases as entropy increases. (Aranda-Espinoza et al. 1999; Kestenbaum 1998) Entropy can even be used to produce order, such as in the sorting of molecules by size (Han and Craighead 2000).
even in a closed system, pockets of lower entropy can form if they are offset by increased entropy elsewhere in the system.
In short, order from disorder happens on earth all the time.

The only processes necessary for evolution to occur are reproduction, heritable variation, and selection. All of these are seen to happen all the time, so, obviously, no physical laws are preventing them. In fact, connections between evolution and entropy have been studied in depth, and never to the detriment of evolution (Demetrius 2000).

Several scientists have proposed that evolution and the origin of life is driven by entropy (McShea 1998). Some see the information content of organisms subject to diversification according to the second law (Brooks and Wiley 1988), so organisms diversify to fill empty niches much as a gas expands to fill an empty container. Others propose that highly ordered complex systems emerge and evolve to dissipate energy (and increase overall entropy) more efficiently (Schneider and Kay 1994).

Creationists themselves admit that increasing order is possible. They introduce fictional exceptions to the law to account for it.

Creationists themselves make claims that directly contradict their claims about the second law of thermodynamics, such as hydrological sorting of fossils during the Flood.

References:
Aranda-Espinoza, H., Y. Chen, N. Dan, T. C. Lubensky, P. Nelson, L. Ramos and D. A. Weitz, 1999. Electrostatic repulsion of positively charged vesicles and negatively charged objects. Science 285: 394-397.
Brooks, D. R. and E. O. Wiley, 1988. Evolution As Entropy, University of Chicago Press.
Kestenbaum, David, 1998. Gentle force of entropy bridges disciplines. Science 279: 1849.
Han, J. and H. G. Craighead, 2000. Separation of long DNA molecules in a microfabricated entropic trap array. Science 288: 1026-1029.
Demetrius, Lloyd, 2000. Theromodynamics and evolution. Journal of Theoretical Biology 206(1): 1-16. http://www.idealibrary.com/links/doi/10 ... .2000.2106
McShea, Daniel W., 1998. Possible largest-scale trends in organismal evolution: eight live hypotheses. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 29: 293-318.
Schneider, Eric D. and James J. Kay, 1994. Life as a manifestation of the second law of thermodynamics. Mathematical and Computer Modelling 19(6-8): 25-48. http://www.fes.uwaterloo.ca/u/jjkay/pub ... lifeas.pdf

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:38 am
How old do you say the universe is ?
The age of the observable part of the universe is at least ~13.7 billion years. How do we know?

https://www.space.com/24054-how-old-is- ... verse.html

https://biologos.org/common-questions/h ... calculated


I'll give you a bit of advice. If you want to prevent yourself from looking like a fool, do not attempt to engage people in debate using claims that you literally have no understanding of. Firstly, it is a dishonest methodology that is easily seen through by those with even a cursory grasp on the subject matter. Secondly, IF you want to intelligently debate on the topic, do your homework on the subject so that you can speak about it without sounding like someone objecting to calculus because "math ain't got no letters in it".

Good lord. :shock:

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by prairiehotrodder » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:55 pm

Yes the Lord is good.

I wasn't talking about the earth. I was talking about the universe. Please don't change my words. I could copy and paste articles but i'll not bother with the long winded responses. I've never claimed to be a scientist. The Bible , God and science are not opposed to each other. Of course i read creationist sources and get info from them. I haven't done the experiments or research myself.

In your mind i may look like a fool. Thats ok with me.

Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.

4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.



Brian
The Word of God is quick and powerfull
www.therocketshop.blogspot.com

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:20 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:55 pm

I wasn't talking about the earth. I was talking about the universe. Please don't change my words.
As stated in the information I provided, the total entropy of the universe can increase while local entropy decreases. What you stated about the second law "toppling" evolution is 100% BULLSH!T, and you can't even defend your claim because you don't understand it AT ALL. You are just parroting things you've heard and read because they support your faith. You should be embarrassed to make claims about things you have no idea about.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:55 pm
I could copy and paste articles but i'll not bother with the long winded responses. I've never claimed to be a scientist. The Bible , God and science are not opposed to each other. Of course i read creationist sources and get info from them. I haven't done the experiments or research myself.

I wish you would copy and paste your articles. If you do, I will systematically dismantle them point by point, using actual data, logic, reason, evidence, etc..., much of which will likely be over your head because you are not educated on the topics. Not being educated on these topics isn't something to be ashamed of, however making claims about these topics when it is apparent that you don't have even the most feeble grasp of the basic concepts is something to be ashamed of, and you should be ashamed for attempting such a disingenuous method of argument.

You should have quit multiple posts ago when you said you were done. If you keep it up, I will keep exposing the flaws in your logic, and the lies you're parroting. I will back my claims, assuring that my positions and arguments are valid and sound, and comport with the observable facts of reality.

If you wish to have this "debate", keep it up. It is up to you.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by prairiehotrodder » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:27 pm

carry on.

You also are just saying things you've heard and read from sources that agree with your woldview.
The Word of God is quick and powerfull
www.therocketshop.blogspot.com

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:36 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:27 pm
carry on.

You also are just saying things you've heard and read from sources that agree with your woldview.
If you really think that, so be it, it is your loss. If you think my positions aren't solidly backed with observation, evidence, etc... then there is nothing I can do to change your mind, as you've already admitted. I understand many of these concepts at a fundamental level, and have experimentally and mathematically verified a lot of them during my education in engineering school.

Know this though, when you make some BS claim and try to use physical laws that you do not even understand to back them, I will be there to correct you... EVERY time.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:22 pm

Maxwell's demon comes to mind.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:24 pm

Dp

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:34 pm

Firedome8 wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:22 pm
Maxwell's demon comes to mind.
Haha, yeah I haven't thought about that in a long time. The demon would have to have the special characteristics of not generating any entropy, as he would be part of the system. Thought experiments are fun, and can be super informative. This one has been pretty thoroughly debunked though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell%27s_demon

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:09 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:55 pm
Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.

4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
That's great. Brought to you by the same folks that authored these gems.

Exodus 21
1
"These are the laws you are to set before them:
2
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
3
If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.
4
If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5
"But if the servant declares, `I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,'
6
then his master must take him before the judges. [1] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
8
If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [2] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
9
If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.
10
If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.
11
If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
12
"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
13
However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.
14
But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15
"Anyone who attacks [3] his father or his mother must be put to death.
16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
17
"Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
18
"If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist [4] and he does not die but is confined to bed,
19
the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.
20
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21
but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
22
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25
burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
26
"If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.
27
And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 6:5, NIV: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." Ephesians 6:5, NLT: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 New International Version (NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by j-c-c » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:14 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:03 am
its not mine. look it up.
So your expertise is only believing what others have stated that you looked up somewhere, that you are unable.unwilling to divulge, with out supplying any peer review?

How convincing. #-o

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:15 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:09 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:55 pm
Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the Lord,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.

4 Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.

6 For the Lord watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.
That's great. Brought to you by the same folks that authored these gems.

Exodus 21
1
"These are the laws you are to set before them:
2
"If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
3
If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.
4
If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5
"But if the servant declares, `I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,'
6
then his master must take him before the judges. [1] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7
"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
8
If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, [2] he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
9
If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.
10
If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.
11
If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.
12
"Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death.
13
However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate.
14
But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.
15
"Anyone who attacks [3] his father or his mother must be put to death.
16
"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.
17
"Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
18
"If men quarrel and one hits the other with a stone or with his fist [4] and he does not die but is confined to bed,
19
the one who struck the blow will not be held responsible if the other gets up and walks around outside with his staff; however, he must pay the injured man for the loss of his time and see that he is completely healed.
20
"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
21
but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.
22
"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [5] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
23
But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,
24
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25
burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
26
"If a man hits a manservant or maidservant in the eye and destroys it, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the eye.
27
And if he knocks out the tooth of a manservant or maidservant, he must let the servant go free to compensate for the tooth.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ephesians 6:5, NIV: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." Ephesians 6:5, NLT: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 New International Version (NIV)
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sounds like bronze age men with a worldview relative to understanding at the time. a lot of people will believe supernatural clams but i can not see why. And how would that distort your world view ?


Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by prairiehotrodder » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:01 pm

Hey guys, you definitely destroyed me in this battle. I guess i need to do my home work a little better. I'll part with the words of a skeptic you may know :

“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

David Berlinski.
The Word of God is quick and powerfull
www.therocketshop.blogspot.com

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by prairiehotrodder » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:15 pm

And i pray that you will forgive me of any harsh words i may have spoken. My temper gets the better of me sometimes.
Brian
The Word of God is quick and powerfull
www.therocketshop.blogspot.com

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by David Redszus » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:34 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:01 pm
Hey guys, you definitely destroyed me in this battle. I guess i need to do my home work a little better. I'll part with the words of a skeptic you may know :

“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

David Berlinski.
Sorry, David but your rant is one of the most silly and inane ever posted.

Why is it incumbent on the non-believer to prove God's inexistence? You can't prove something that does not exist. You must prove that God exists.

You attempt to blend science with faith based systems; they are not compatible in any way. A scientist can believe in any god they might choose, or a religous individual can believe in any science they choose, or not. They are unrelated.

Faith based personal beliefs have never led to moral thought any more often than they have led to immoral behavior.

The horrors of the 20th century were brought to the world by religious men with an avowed moral purpose; didn't work out that way.

Our planet is different than others because of the existence of life, it was not fine tuned to allow for life. Other planets in our solar system began very similar to earth but did not change as earth did because of life.

Scientific atheism remains the proper intellectual position until such time as can be proven, not merely alleged, otherwise.

Your comments indicate a rather weak understanding of the planet earth, the role of science, the history of mankind, and the concept of multifaceted faiths, past and present.

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Re: Questions for the atheist. (Part 1)

Post by GRTfast » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:46 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:01 pm
Hey guys, you definitely destroyed me in this battle. I guess i need to do my home work a little better. I'll part with the words of a skeptic you may know :

“Has anyone provided proof of God’s inexistence? Not even close. Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here? Not even close. Have our sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life? Not even close. Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought? Close enough. Has rationalism and moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral? Not close enough. Has secularism in the terrible 20th century been a force for good? Not even close, to being close. Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy in the sciences? Close enough. Does anything in the sciences or their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational? Not even in the ball park. Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt? Dead on.”

David Berlinski.
I'm actually not familiar with this guy, but that quote is a word salad full of fallacious claims. Sounds like something the Discovery Institute would publish.

"scientific atheism"........ what is that?

Claim: some god exists

Theist: I am convinced that claim is true
Atheist: I am not convinced that claim is true.


Being an atheist has nothing to do with science. It has everything to do with rational justification for belief, and the burden of proof not being met for the claim(s) that god(s) exists.

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