When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by Splitter » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:31 pm

If reporting abuse is the victims responsibility, then what should the punishment be for not fulfilling their responsibility?

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by j-c-c » Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:29 pm

Splitter wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:31 pm
If reporting abuse is the victims responsibility, then what should the punishment be for not fulfilling their responsibility?
Self incrimination?

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by Splitter » Mon Oct 08, 2018 11:59 pm

Is sexual assault subjective? Hazing of new recruits for a sports team or frat house might involve sexual assault which would be serious enough to put the offender in prison for years, but it is still the victims choice whether or not to report it. It should be about justice for the victims, not to satisfy a mob of protestors or make good headlines so the media can get more views. The accusations weren’t brought to light until recently in the Kavanaugh case, because he was being considered for an appointment to the Supreme Court. Otherwise we’d have never heard about them, so just how bad could it have been?

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by David Redszus » Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02 am

I would like to hear various definitions of the difference between "rape" and "assault" and "horseplay".

Groping and unwanted touching has been a mainstay of every high school dance for a century or more.
Many girls expect it and are disappointed in its absence. Some girls initiate the activity as well.

That is a long way from inflicting violence and physical injury upon a victim. Verbal abuse is not real abuse at all.

What about those many instances where intimate experience is consensual but she changes her mind the
next morning? Or the next week? Or years later?

I can remember asking a young lady to go to bed. She said no, several times. I stopped asking.
She then asked me, "Why did you stop asking me, I was about ready to say yes".

If men do not take the sexual initiative, then who will?

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by j-c-c » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:35 am

David Redszus wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02 am
I would like to hear various definitions of the difference between "rape" and "assault" and "horseplay".

Groping and unwanted touching has been a mainstay of every high school dance for a century or more.
Many girls expect it and are disappointed in its absence. Some girls initiate the activity as well.

That is a long way from inflicting violence and physical injury upon a victim. Verbal abuse is not real abuse at all.

What about those many instances where intimate experience is consensual but she changes her mind the
next morning? Or the next week? Or years later?

I can remember asking a young lady to go to bed. She said no, several times. I stopped asking.
She then asked me, "Why did you stop asking me, I was about ready to say yes".

If men do not take the sexual initiative, then who will?
Physically pushing another into a room, locking the door, pushing them onto a bed, physically pinning another down with your body, attempting to remove clothes from another who is resisting, intentionally contacting my genitals onto another thru my clothing without permission, and then covering the restrained persons mouth to prevent speaking, meets my standards for sexual abuse, fairly clearly. I suspect every situation is different. Behave accordingly.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by David Redszus » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:08 am

j-c-c wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:35 am
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02 am
I would like to hear various definitions of the difference between "rape" and "assault" and "horseplay".

Groping and unwanted touching has been a mainstay of every high school dance for a century or more.
Many girls expect it and are disappointed in its absence. Some girls initiate the activity as well.

That is a long way from inflicting violence and physical injury upon a victim. Verbal abuse is not real abuse at all.

What about those many instances where intimate experience is consensual but she changes her mind the
next morning? Or the next week? Or years later?

I can remember asking a young lady to go to bed. She said no, several times. I stopped asking.
She then asked me, "Why did you stop asking me, I was about ready to say yes".

If men do not take the sexual initiative, then who will?
Physically pushing another into a room, locking the door, pushing them onto a bed, physically pinning another down with your body, attempting to remove clothes from another who is resisting, intentionally contacting my genitals onto another thru my clothing without permission, and then covering the restrained persons mouth to prevent speaking, meets my standards for sexual abuse, fairly clearly. I suspect every situation is different. Behave accordingly.
Here's the problem.
No clothing was removed.
No penetration of any kind occured.
No physical injury resulted.
No supporting evidence provided.
No corroborating testimony from anyone.
No placement of event with respect to time, location, other participants.
Highly selective and faulty memory.

In short, a liar who is using her training for political smear purposes.

The presumption of innocence is absolute until proven otherwise.

Remember..."Thou shall not bear false witness against thy......"

What should her punishment be? Mild to severe stoning? =D>

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by j-c-c » Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:14 am

David Redszus wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:08 am
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:35 am
David Redszus wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:02 am
I would like to hear various definitions of the difference between "rape" and "assault" and "horseplay".

Groping and unwanted touching has been a mainstay of every high school dance for a century or more.
Many girls expect it and are disappointed in its absence. Some girls initiate the activity as well.

That is a long way from inflicting violence and physical injury upon a victim. Verbal abuse is not real abuse at all.

What about those many instances where intimate experience is consensual but she changes her mind the
next morning? Or the next week? Or years later?

I can remember asking a young lady to go to bed. She said no, several times. I stopped asking.
She then asked me, "Why did you stop asking me, I was about ready to say yes".

If men do not take the sexual initiative, then who will?
Physically pushing another into a room, locking the door, pushing them onto a bed, physically pinning another down with your body, attempting to remove clothes from another who is resisting, intentionally contacting my genitals onto another thru my clothing without permission, and then covering the restrained persons mouth to prevent speaking, meets my standards for sexual abuse, fairly clearly. I suspect every situation is different. Behave accordingly.
Here's the problem.
No clothing was removed.
No penetration of any kind occured.
No physical injury resulted.
No supporting evidence provided.
No corroborating testimony from anyone.
No placement of event with respect to time, location, other participants.
Highly selective and faulty memory.

In short, a liar who is using her training for political smear purposes.

The presumption of innocence is absolute until proven otherwise.

Remember..."Thou shall not bear false witness against thy......"

What should her punishment be? Mild to severe stoning? =D>
The Problem with your above "problem", you apparently don't understand what constituents, from a legal standpoint, the definition of sexual assault. Your listed "problems" are not crucial elements, even if true. If you watched the second hearing, the legal definition was discussed and described clearly.

Regardless, what we are discussing was not a trial, it was an interview, for nth time. :roll:

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by David Redszus » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:10 am

j-c-c wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:14 am
David Redszus wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:08 am
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:35 am


Physically pushing another into a room, locking the door, pushing them onto a bed, physically pinning another down with your body, attempting to remove clothes from another who is resisting, intentionally contacting my genitals onto another thru my clothing without permission, and then covering the restrained persons mouth to prevent speaking, meets my standards for sexual abuse, fairly clearly. I suspect every situation is different. Behave accordingly.
Here's the problem.
No clothing was removed.
No penetration of any kind occured.
No physical injury resulted.
No supporting evidence provided.
No corroborating testimony from anyone.
No placement of event with respect to time, location, other participants.
Highly selective and faulty memory.

In short, a liar who is using her training for political smear purposes.

The presumption of innocence is absolute until proven otherwise.

Remember..."Thou shall not bear false witness against thy......"

What should her punishment be? Mild to severe stoning? =D>
The Problem with your above "problem", you apparently don't understand what constituents, from a legal standpoint, the definition of sexual assault. Your listed "problems" are not crucial elements, even if true. If you watched the second hearing, the legal definition was discussed and described clearly.

Regardless, what we are discussing was not a trial, it was an interview, for nth time. :roll:
Wrong. It was intended to be a high visibility media trial. Without the presumption of innocence.
When Men Are Raped
A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault,
and women are often the perpetrators.

Last year the National Crime Victimization Survey turned up a remarkable statistic. In asking
40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of
incidents were against men. The number seemed so high that it prompted researcher Lara Stemple
to call the Bureau of Justice Statistics to see if it maybe it had made a mistake, or changed its
terminology. After all, in years past men had accounted for somewhere between 5 and 14 percent
of rape and sexual violence victims. But no, it wasn’t a mistake, officials told her, although they
couldn’t explain the rise beyond guessing that maybe it had something to do with the publicity
surrounding former football coach Jerry Sandusky and the Penn State s*x abuse scandal.

Stemple, who works with the Health and Human Rights Project at UCLA, had often wondered
whether incidents of sexual violence against men were under-reported. She had once worked
on prison reform and knew that jail is a place where sexual violence against men is routine
but not counted in the general national statistics. Stemple began digging through existing
surveys and discovered that her hunch was correct. The experience of men and women is “a lot
closer than any of us would expect,” she says. For some kinds of victimization, men and women
have roughly equal experiences. Stemple concluded that we need to “completely rethink our
assumptions about sexual victimization,” and especially our fallback model that men are always
the perpetrators and women the victims.

Sexual assault is a term that gets refracted through the culture wars, as Slate’s own Emily Bazelon
explained in a story about the terminology of rape. Feminists claimed the more legalistic term of
sexual assault to put it squarely in the camp of violent crime. But she also allows that rape does not
help us grasp crimes outside our limited imagination, particularly crimes against men.

For years, the FBI defined forcible rape, for data collecting purposes, as “the carnal knowledge
of a female forcibly and against her will.” Eventually localities began to rebel against that limited
gender-bound definition; in 2010 Chicago reported 86,767 cases of rape but used its own broader
definition, so the FBI left out the Chicago stats. Finally, in 2012, the FBI revised its definition and
focused on penetration, with no mention of female (or force).

Data hasn’t been calculated under the new FBI definition yet, but Stemple parses several other
national surveys in her new paper, “The Sexual Victimization of Men in America: New Data Challenge
Old Assumptions,” co-written with Ilan Meyer and published in the April 17 edition of the American
Journal of Public Health. One of those surveys is the 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual
Violence Survey, for which the Centers for Disease Control invented a category of sexual violence
called “being made to penetrate.” This definition includes victims who were forced to penetrate
someone else with their own body parts, either by physical force or coercion, or when the victim
was drunk or high or otherwise unable to consent. When those cases were taken into account,
the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact basically equalized, with 1.270 million women and
1.267 million men claiming to be victims of sexual violence.

“Made to penetrate” is an awkward phrase that hasn’t gotten any traction. It’s also something
we instinctively don’t associate with sexual assault. But is it possible our instincts are all wrong
here? We might assume, for example, that if a man has an erection he must want s*x, especially
because we assume men are sexually insatiable. But imagine if the same were said about women.

The mere presence of physiological symptoms associated with arousal does not in fact indicate
actual arousal, much less willing participation. And the high degree of depression and dysfunction
among male victims of sexual abuse backs this up. At the very least, the phrase remedies an obvious
injustice. Under the old FBI definition, what happened to Rafael Yglesias would only have counted
as rape if he’d been an 8-year-old girl. Accepting the term “made to penetrate” helps us understand
that trauma comes in all forms.

So why are men suddenly showing up as victims? Every comedian has a prison rape joke and prosecutions
of sexual crimes against men are still rare. But gender norms are shaking loose in a way that allows men
to identify themselves—if the survey is sensitive and specific enough—as vulnerable. A recent analysis
of BJS data, for example, turned up that 46 percent of male victims reported a female perpetrator.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by j-c-c » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:53 am

David Redszus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:10 am
j-c-c wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:14 am
David Redszus wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:08 am


Here's the problem.
No clothing was removed.
No penetration of any kind occured.
No physical injury resulted.
No supporting evidence provided.
No corroborating testimony from anyone.
No placement of event with respect to time, location, other participants.
Highly selective and faulty memory.

In short, a liar who is using her training for political smear purposes.

The presumption of innocence is absolute until proven otherwise.

Remember..."Thou shall not bear false witness against thy......"

What should her punishment be? Mild to severe stoning? =D>
The Problem with your above "problem", you apparently don't understand what constituents, from a legal standpoint, the definition of sexual assault. Your listed "problems" are not crucial elements, even if true. If you watched the second hearing, the legal definition was discussed and described clearly.

Regardless, what we are discussing was not a trial, it was an interview, for nth time. :roll:
Wrong. It was intended to be a high visibility media trial. Without the presumption of innocence.

It you believe this a fact, prove it.
If only your opinion, I disagree.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by j-c-c » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:54 am

David Redszus wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:10 am
j-c-c wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:14 am
David Redszus wrote:
Wed Oct 10, 2018 11:08 am


Here's the problem.
No clothing was removed.
No penetration of any kind occured.
No physical injury resulted.
No supporting evidence provided.
No corroborating testimony from anyone.
No placement of event with respect to time, location, other participants.
Highly selective and faulty memory.

In short, a liar who is using her training for political smear purposes.

The presumption of innocence is absolute until proven otherwise.

Remember..."Thou shall not bear false witness against thy......"

What should her punishment be? Mild to severe stoning? =D>
The Problem with your above "problem", you apparently don't understand what constituents, from a legal standpoint, the definition of sexual assault. Your listed "problems" are not crucial elements, even if true. If you watched the second hearing, the legal definition was discussed and described clearly.

Regardless, what we are discussing was not a trial, it was an interview, for nth time. :roll:
Wrong. It was intended to be a high visibility media trial. Without the presumption of innocence.
It you believe this is a fact, prove it.
If only your opinion, I disagree.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by 86_regal » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:13 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:15 pm
Serious question, what do you think happens more often? Men sexually abusing women and denying it, or women falsely accusing men of sexual abuse?
What more can you expect to get out of this than opinions?

Seems to me you're coming close to the #believewomen narrative... which is just that, a narrative?
Which BTW, is NOT proof.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by 86_regal » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:26 am
lefty o wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:06 am
Splitter wrote:
Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:54 pm
Of course, it’s totally absurd...it was the punch line! I should have put it in quotations.
its not even funny in quotations.
He wasn't trying to be funny, its the mindset of a large part of today's society, if one has been paying attention the last few weeks.

We will soon be making rape great again by making a wife exempt from accusing their spouse of rape, because they will look at her birth control pills, her prior history with the rapist, etc, while we are talking absurd, no quotations needed. #-o
Please tell me you're not serious... I think you're coming off the rails on this one...

Our country is more cognizant of "woman's issues" now than ever... Equal pay, military service, "access" to contraception, "access" to abortions (access being a euphemism for subsidization).

One of the most important factors that brought the Ford/Kavanaugh issue to light, despite scant corroboration, NO actual evidence & irrelevant anecdotal character assassination claims, was because we take rape MORE seriously now than ever.

IMO, one of the overtly NEGATIVE collateral effects of identity politics, group think, collectivism, etc. is this notion that we can "prove" allegations of rape based on the historical "injustices" of women perpetrated by men and the use of generalized gender traits. All IRRELEVANT to the veracity of the rape claim.

This same shitty "logic" is applied to allegations of racism. When a white police officer shoots a black man, or when a white employer DOESN'T employ many blacks the IMMEDIATE default is
racism, with no interest or enthusiasm for proof to the contrary.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by j-c-c » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:13 pm

86_regal wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:26 am
lefty o wrote:
Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:06 am


its not even funny in quotations.
He wasn't trying to be funny, its the mindset of a large part of today's society, if one has been paying attention the last few weeks.

We will soon be making rape great again by making a wife exempt from accusing their spouse of rape, because they will look at her birth control pills, her prior history with the rapist, etc, while we are talking absurd, no quotations needed. #-o
Please tell me you're not serious... I think you're coming off the rails on this one...

Our country is more cognizant of "woman's issues" now than ever... Equal pay, military service, "access" to contraception, "access" to abortions (access being a euphemism for subsidization).

One of the most important factors that brought the Ford/Kavanaugh issue to light, despite scant corroboration, NO actual evidence & irrelevant anecdotal character assassination claims, was because we take rape MORE seriously now than ever.

IMO, one of the overtly NEGATIVE collateral effects of identity politics, group think, collectivism, etc. is this notion that we can "prove" allegations of rape based on the historical "injustices" of women perpetrated by men and the use of generalized gender traits. All IRRELEVANT to the veracity of the rape claim.

This same shitty "logic" is applied to allegations of racism. When a white police officer shoots a black man, or when a white employer DOESN'T employ many blacks the IMMEDIATE default is
racism, with no interest or enthusiasm for proof to the contrary.
You need to start at the beginning, the above is out of context due to site built in quoting restrictions, if you want to determine seriousness, and basis for the the sarcasm.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by GRTfast » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:09 pm

86_regal wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:13 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:15 pm
Serious question, what do you think happens more often? Men sexually abusing women and denying it, or women falsely accusing men of sexual abuse?
What more can you expect to get out of this than opinions?

Seems to me you're coming close to the #believewomen narrative... which is just that, a narrative?
Which BTW, is NOT proof.
Seems to me, you can’t answer a simple question. People’s beliefs inform their actions. It’s improtant to understand one’s world view of you want to understand how they justify their positions.

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Re: When it is abuse, what are a victims responsibility?

Post by 86_regal » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:21 am

GRTfast wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:09 pm
86_regal wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:13 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:15 pm
Serious question, what do you think happens more often? Men sexually abusing women and denying it, or women falsely accusing men of sexual abuse?
What more can you expect to get out of this than opinions?

Seems to me you're coming close to the #believewomen narrative... which is just that, a narrative?
Which BTW, is NOT proof.
Seems to me, you can’t answer a simple question. People’s beliefs inform their actions. It’s improtant to understand one’s world view of you want to understand how they justify their positions.
Can't answer? Come on GRT...

The question is meant to ply an answer which creates the perception of validity and reinforcement of a warped idealogical narrative which has no bearing on SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL allegations of rape.

IF I were to answer your question that men are more likely to sexually abuse women and deny it than women reporting false accusations, is that PROOF that Kavanuagh is guilty and Ford's allegation was truthful? Really??

It's important to understand one's world view? People's beliefs inform their actions? Justify their positions?

This vaguely similar to "his truth", "her truth" or "your truth"...
I thought there was only ONE truth...

Do you offer the same latitude and "justification" to men who believe women are to be controlled and only needed for child bearing? People who still contend blacks are an inferior race and should relegated back into slavery? How about climate change deniers?

I don't understand how someone like yourself, whom I respect for having respect for scientific methodologies & principles in the PURSUIT OF TRUTH could subscribe to this line of reasoning...

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