Faith is not a reliable path to truth

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GRTfast
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:29 am

Circlotron wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:42 am
GRTfast wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:46 am

If we still want to play the “how accurate is the Bible” game, let’s pick an easier one, one that was addressed here before.

How was there light, and night and day before the sun existed?
Genesis 1:2 says there was darkness on the surface of the waters.
The fact that it specifies just *where* the darkness was is significant, because if the sun did not yet exist then there would be darkness everywhere, not simply at one specified place. Saying there was darkness on the surface of the waters would then be meaningless.

If sun, moon and stars were obscured by a thick layer of clouds, so much so that there was darkness , and then later these clouds later on began to clear, it would appear to a person on the earth that had never been able to see them before, that the sun, moon and stars had come into existence. They were there all along of course, just not visible.
The problem is, it doesn't say that the story is supposed to be written from the perspective of a person in earth, and it doesn't say that darkness was only on the face of the waters. You can "if" all day long. It doesn't say that it "appears" that the sun comes into existence on the 4th day (how do days make since without the sun again???!!!?), it says that the sun was created on the 4th day. So yes, if you change what it actually says, or convince yourself that the supposed perfect word of god is actually something different than what is written in the book, you can make anything make sense. That doesn't mean it actually makes sense.

These interpretations that you're offering have only existed since we have figured out the actual order of the events. The explanations you offer would be considered blasphemy in ancient times. Furthermore, there are millions of christian who will disagree with your loose interpretation because they take it literally.... which is actually more in line with what that bible says to do.

Psalms 12:6
The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times.

If your approach was correct, I would expect it to say something like: "These words are figurative and written from the perspective of a man on the earth, and you should keep reinterpreting what they mean so it is congruent with what we actually know about reality"

The big irony here is, it seems that life isn't the only thing that evolves to survive.
Last edited by GRTfast on Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:35 am

Circlotron wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:45 am
GRTfast wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:46 am
Also, the last part of this passage (psalms 93:1):

The Lord reigns, he is clothed with majesty; The Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established so that it cannot be moved

Does that sound accurate? Is the earth not constantly moving? Wouldn’t a god know we would figure this out and realize it is wrong?
"Cannot be moved" as in cannot be removed. It is permanent.
:lol:

Does it say "removed" or does it say "moved"? Again, you're engaging in creative "interpretation" in order to try and rationalize how an account of creation that you've accepted as fact for no good reason can jive with actual facts that stand in contrast to those claims.

Also, the earth isn't permanent, so even if your interpretation where you literally change what it says was accurate, it would still be wrong. We know that our star is going to die one day. Part of that process involves the sun growing in size such that it will literally vaporize the planet. Star life cycles are well understood, this isn't conjecture.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by RevTheory » Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:56 am

To my fellow Christians:
37580670_267191780532794_5577498501144641536_n.jpg

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:13 am

GRTfast wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:35 am
Circlotron wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:45 am
GRTfast wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:46 am
Also, the last part of this passage (psalms 93:1):

The Lord reigns, he is clothed with majesty; The Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established so that it cannot be moved

Does that sound accurate? Is the earth not constantly moving? Wouldn’t a god know we would figure this out and realize it is wrong?
"Cannot be moved" as in cannot be removed. It is permanent.
:lol:

Does it say "removed" or does it say "moved"? Again, you're engaging in creative "interpretation" in order to try and rationalize how an account of creation that you've accepted as fact for no good reason can jive with actual facts that stand in contrast to those claims.

Also, the earth isn't permanent, so even if your interpretation where you literally change what it says was accurate, it would still be wrong. We know that our star is going to die one day. Part of that process involves the sun growing in size such that it will literally vaporize the planet. Star life cycles are well understood, this isn't conjecture.
The problem is also the interpretation of ancient writers it's a game of telephone thousands of years in the making. Try Bart Ermons "Misquoting Jesus" it is a good read.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:17 am

RevTheory wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:56 am
To my fellow Christians:

37580670_267191780532794_5577498501144641536_n.jpg
That is what the tv preachers say when they want a new jet LOLOLOLO

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:51 am

RevTheory wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:56 am
To my fellow Christians:

37580670_267191780532794_5577498501144641536_n.jpg
Translation:

People who think critically and require adequate justification for beliefs aren't susceptible to circular reasoning and arguments from ignorance.


It's ok though, acting like you've got some message that's above and/or beyond the capability of non believers to understand is a coping mechanism I've seen employed many times before in these "debates".

It's the final fallback/goto that believers use once it has been shown that they don't actually have any good reason to believe as they do.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by prairiehotrodder » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am

Hey GRT - i might have the answer you are looking for in your title. I actually agree with the title as i stated earlier. Its what you put your faith in, not just faith itself. Faith itself is nothing.

Anyways here is the answer i was gonna pass on to you. Hebrews 11:6

Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

If i remember correctly, somewhere earlier in this thread you admitted that you used to be a Christian ? Is that true ? Then somehow you found some other evidence and became an atheist ? Is that true ?

There i think is the main problem with this whole thread. Why it will never get anywhere. You misunderstood God and faith and whatever experience you may have had. The truth is you were never a Christian. You just thought you were and its not your fault really. You see the fact that you have left the faith shows that you were never in the faith. Thats not how it works. Likely you prayed a prayer or were lead in a prayer by a well meaning person and thought that you then became a Christian. You probably had expectations that were not met in your new "Christian" life. Such as health, wealth and prosperity. The truth of it was probably more like hard work, suffering and persecution. You likely felt you were ripped off by God and whatever that other person told you. You were a false convert, it happens all the time. People don't repent and believe. They just ask and expect to get, its what they have been told will work. JAMES 4:3

You ask and you do not receive because you ask with wrong motives that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

The truth is that God does not let go of those who are his. And he rewards them as in the Hebrews verse above. All the guys who are fighting on the side of Christianity in this thread, know and have truly experienced Gods power, love and prescence in their life. They KNOW he exists even though he is invisible and we can't show him to you in the way you want. You thought God existed, gave him a try (looking for rewards) got mad, abandoned the search and now are seeking evidence to prove he doesn't exist. I've seen it all before. You see salvation is something God does, its not something we do.
Example : if i asked you to mow my lawn, you may or may not do it. Its up to you. My asking doesn't force it to happen. Its not until i look out my window and see all my grass cut that i know you did it. Same with God, asking doesn't force it to happen. Its when God forgives our sin and places his holy spirit in my heart that i am truly saved. HE Does it, not me. Some of what i'm saying to you is even mis-understood by Christians. Just as all atheists don't agree on what theory they think is true. I'm not trying to mock you with all this because i think you actually are a genuine guy and you aren't a dummy. You have been inoculated against God. Nobody will ever tell you anything that will make you change your mind. Is any of this sinking in ?
Brian
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by RevTheory » Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:01 pm

The parable of the Sower sowing the Seed comes to mind here. I've experienced stage-1 and 2 first hand.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:00 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
Hey GRT - i might have the answer you are looking for in your title. I actually agree with the title as i stated earlier. Its what you put your faith in, not just faith itself. Faith itself is nothing.
Faith is worse than nothing, it can actually lead you believe things that you have no good reason to believe. It's like poison for your brain.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
Anyways here is the answer i was gonna pass on to you. Hebrews 11:6

Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

I did earnestly seek him for somewhere around half my life.

If i remember correctly, somewhere earlier in this thread you admitted that you used to be a Christian ? Is that true ? Then somehow you found some other evidence and became an atheist ? Is that true ?
It's not about "finding other evidence", you don't need evidence to not believe some extraordinary claim. It's about being honest with yourself about what you know, what you can know, what you don't know, and what you can't know. The reason for me becoming an atheist (it wasn't a choice for what it's worth) actually has a number of components. I was raised loosely Christian. I attended church with my Grandmother, and with many of of my friends. Me dad was a believer. I was a believer, but I always had questions that no one could give a good answer for, and that I couldn't find answers for in the bible, no matter how hard I looked. This led to me deciding to dig in and read the bible. Around this same time (I was roughly 20 years old), I was also beginning to study various scientific fields, and philosophies like epistemology. I was embarking on an honest intellectual search for god. I had accepted Jesus into my heart sincerely, and I was sure I felt the presence of god when I prayed and when I went to church.

As I dug in, I began to find that the explanations I had always been given for my various questions weren't actually true. I also knew from my own experience that the scientific method works for separating truth from BS. I also began to find that the bible had a lot of inconsistencies and outright incorrect information in it, along with some horrific immorality. This led to me beginning to study the historical origins of the old testament, and of Christianity. I also began to learn that religious feelings could be induced with electrical and chemical stimulation in the brain. I realized those feelings I was attributing to god were actually me. I began to learn that the bible is basically a mashup greatest hits of multiple more ancient religions. Coupled with the problems I had already noticed in my reading of the bible, along with this historical context and an understanding how information was passed and how things were explained in pre-scientific eras, it began to become obvious to me what the bible was, where the idea of god(s) came from, and how people (incorrectly) justified their beliefs. My de-conversion is the result of an internally honest and consistent pursuit of truth.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
There i think is the main problem with this whole thread. Why it will never get anywhere. You misunderstood God and faith and whatever experience you may have had.
Haha, no you have it wrong my friend. I understand what faith actually is, and I understand that the notion of god is nothing more than an idea created to fill in the gaps in human understanding.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
The truth is you were never a Christian.
Nice, how judgmental of you. I was as much of a Christian as anyone else is. I accepted Jesus into my heart, and I believed that there was a god who created everything, loved me, and that I was going to live eternally in heaven when I died. The fact that I later realized the folly of my reasons for belief has no bearing on whether or not I was "really" a Christian. You presume to know much more about me than you actually do.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
You just thought you were and its not your fault really. You see the fact that you have left the faith shows that you were never in the faith. Thats not how it works. Likely you prayed a prayer or were lead in a prayer by a well meaning person and thought that you then became a Christian. You probably had expectations that were not met in your new "Christian" life. Such as health, wealth and prosperity. The truth of it was probably more like hard work, suffering and persecution. You likely felt you were ripped off by God and whatever that other person told you. You were a false convert, it happens all the time. People don't repent and believe. They just ask and expect to get, its what they have been told will work. JAMES 4:3

You ask and you do not receive because you ask with wrong motives that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
This section that you wrote is a bunch of bullshit where you presume that I left the faith because I was scorned, or some other selfish reason. Thank you for perfectly illustrating for every reader here what a total judgemental a-hole some believers can be when presented with things that make them uncomfortable, or that they don't understand. You have to rationalize that I am really just some selfish d-head who rejected god because he didn't measure up to some standard I had or give me what I wanted. Wow man, that's pretty shitty.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
The truth is that God does not let go of those who are his. And he rewards them as in the Hebrews verse above. All the guys who are fighting on the side of Christianity in this thread, know and have truly experienced Gods power, love and prescence in their life. They KNOW he exists even though he is invisible and we can't show him to you in the way you want. You thought God existed, gave him a try (looking for rewards) got mad, abandoned the search and now are seeking evidence to prove he doesn't exist. I've seen it all before. You see salvation is something God does, its not something we do.
They don't know it, no one does. You don't have some special powers that I don't have.

That's nothing more than you articulating the mechanism of self delusion you employ. Once you realize that the only good reason to believe something is for it to be sufficiently supported by a logical, reasonable analysis of the actual evidence, you will chuckle when someone tells you they "know" something to be true, but can't articulate how they know with anything more than "I just know because I felt it."

I can play that game too. I "just know" you're wrong. See, you're wrong. How do I know? I "just know because I felt it". Seems real convincing doesn't it? #-o
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:33 am
I'm not trying to mock you with all this because i think you actually are a genuine guy and you aren't a dummy. You have been inoculated against God. Nobody will ever tell you anything that will make you change your mind. Is any of this sinking in ?
Brian
I'm also inoculated against believing I can teleport by covering myself in peanut butter and licking a light socket. It's called "not being a gullible idiot".

One well reasoned argument that isn't circular, or isn't based on a logical fallacy, or a series of logical fallacies would be a great start in fostering belief. The problem is, as far as I've found (and I have looked more than most, if not all on this forum), those do not exist. If you think you have one, I am all ears. I've read some of the leading apologists, and most of the bible (more than most christians i've encountered). Once you understand what a circular argument is, and what the common logical fallacies are, you see them like flashing beacons.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Feelings do not qualify. Arguments from ignorance do not qualify.

Do you believe Zeus is real? How about Mithra? How about Coatlicue? Shiva? Vishnu? Brahma? No? You have been inoculated against them. You are an atheist with respect to these gods, and the other 4200 or so that have been, and are currently worshiped on this planet. I just add one more to the list. I use the same justification to dismiss your god that you use to dismiss the ones you don't worship.

What you and every believer always ends up telling me is that I have to believe it first before I can know it to be true. The problem with that is, anyone can be made to believe just about anything with enough effort. It's called brainwashing.

I appreciate your lengthy write up, but it is flawed in a number of ways, some that I pointed out, and others that I chose to not address.

I'll finish with this question. Is there anything that one can't believe based on faith?

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by prairiehotrodder » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:09 pm

So i was wrong and you REALLY were a Christian ?
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:19 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:09 pm
So i was wrong and you REALLY were a Christian ?
As much as I think anyone is, and by a basic definition yes, I was a Christian. Personal definitions such as the one you suggested are pretty subjective. I think you may find as many definitions of what it truly means to be Christian as there are Christians. I have heard radically different views of what god actually is from people in the same church.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by prairiehotrodder » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm

well being a Christian is being part of Gods kingdom and as i stated earlier, God doesn't lose those that belong to him.

Also i was not being judgemental earlier, i was stating the facts. Because of what i just said above.

I respect your story. You're finding your way and seem to be honest with yourself. i don't think you've looked into the answers for the truth of Christianity as hard as you claim but thats just my opinion.

Brian
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by exhaustgases » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:44 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:19 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:09 pm
So i was wrong and you REALLY were a Christian ?
As much as I think anyone is, and by a basic definition yes, I was a Christian. Personal definitions such as the one you suggested are pretty subjective. I think you may find as many definitions of what it truly means to be Christian as there are Christians. I have heard radically different views of what god actually is from people in the same church.
Now we know why you know nothing, listening to the wrong bunch? Maybe study a bit. So this thread is correct "faith is not a reliable path to truth". The faith in Karl Marx that all you demoncrats have is not a path to truth. So we have ended this brilliant thread.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:46 pm

exhaustgases wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:44 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:19 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:09 pm
So i was wrong and you REALLY were a Christian ?
As much as I think anyone is, and by a basic definition yes, I was a Christian. Personal definitions such as the one you suggested are pretty subjective. I think you may find as many definitions of what it truly means to be Christian as there are Christians. I have heard radically different views of what god actually is from people in the same church.
Now we know why you know nothing, listening to the wrong bunch? Maybe study a bit. So this thread is correct "faith is not a reliable path to truth". The faith in Karl Marx that all you demoncrats have is not a path to truth. So we have ended this brilliant thread.
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:57 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm
well being a Christian is being part of Gods kingdom and as i stated earlier, God doesn't lose those that belong to him.
You should research the clergy project.

http://clergyproject.org/

You can claim that Christians who no longer believe weren't ever true Christians, but that is just a rationalization your making to quell your congnitive dissonance.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Also i was not being judgemental earlier, i was stating the facts. Because of what i just said above.
What you said above isn't a fact, it's a opinion based on faith. you're confused about what facts are.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm
I respect your story. You're finding your way and seem to be honest with yourself.
Thanks. I respect your right to believe what you do, and I appreciate the time you've taken to engage me. That being said, I don't think you or anyone who believes extraordinary claims based on faith and feelings are being honest with themselves..

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm
i don't think you've looked into the answers for the truth of Christianity as hard as you claim but thats just my opinion.

Brian
That's because you've convinced yourself that anyone looking hard enough will reach the same conclusions as you. That's a rather selfish notion when we are discussing a topic that isn't evidence based.

I'll ask again. Is there anything that someone can't believe based solely on faith?

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