Faith is not a reliable path to truth

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GRTfast
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:41 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:13 pm
Firedome8 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:29 am
GARY C wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:37 pm
If his arguments are factually incorrect then are they still reasonable? and if the caller can not correct him on his facts then it appears the callers position has no basis... It's just a straw man set up to push a "belief" system.
You should call Matt and set his dumass straight.
Done that in the past, it doesn't do any good if they are not actually looking for answers. If you want to talk historical/factual evidence they don't take your call.

The show looks more convincing when the caller can't answer the questions.
That certainly doesn’t jive with what you see watching the show. They are constantly asking people what they believe and why. They are looking for evidence based arguments. You are mischaracterizing the show to be something it’s not. This thread is an example of what happens when someone like you gets on the air on that show. Your feet are held to the fire and you aren’t allowed to use circular reasoning and other logical fallacies to try and support your points. You then switch in to a mode where you infer you are being treated unfairly or somehow the victim of a mean agenda. You also do not provid any good evidence to to back your beliefs or your claims about positions you claim are incorrect.

Your approach to figuring out what is true is disenginuous. You start with the conclusion, then work to twist the evidence (and your definition of evidence) to fit your already accepted conclusion. That is as ass backwards of an approach as you can have if you care about being honest and care about figuring out what is actually true.

Pathetic.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:43 pm

FuelieNova wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm
I always laugh at these kind of threads... I am a believer.
My thoughts always are... we will see who's right when you die :shock: until then the debate will go on forever.
Tg
What do you believe and why? Do you think your belief is reasonably justified?

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:55 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:41 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:13 pm
Firedome8 wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:29 am


You should call Matt and set his dumass straight.
Done that in the past, it doesn't do any good if they are not actually looking for answers. If you want to talk historical/factual evidence they don't take your call.

The show looks more convincing when the caller can't answer the questions.
That certainly doesn’t jive with what you see watching the show. They are constantly asking people what they believe and why. They are looking for evidence based arguments. You are mischaracterizing the show to be something it’s not. This thread is an example of what happens when someone like you gets on the air on that show. Your feet are held to the fire and you aren’t allowed to use circular reasoning and other logical fallacies to try and support your points. You then switch in to a mode where you infer you are being treated unfairly or somehow the victim of a mean agenda. You also do not provid any good evidence to to back your beliefs or your claims about positions you claim are incorrect.

Your approach to figuring out what is true is disenginuous. You start with the conclusion, then work to twist the evidence (and your definition of evidence) to fit your already accepted conclusion. That is as ass backwards of an approach as you can have if you care about being honest and care about figuring out what is actually true.

Pathetic.
If you say so.
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:26 pm

FuelieNova wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm
I always laugh at these kind of threads... I am a believer.
My thoughts always are... we will see who's right when you die :shock: until then the debate will go on forever.
Tg
I think thats by design, the bible is the best documented most studied and debated book in human history... Looks like God authored "the" best seller. :)
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sanfordandson
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by sanfordandson » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:34 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:26 pm
FuelieNova wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm
I always laugh at these kind of threads... I am a believer.
My thoughts always are... we will see who's right when you die :shock: until then the debate will go on forever.
Tg
I think thats by design, the bible is the best documented most studied and debated book in human history... Looks like God authored "the" best seller. :)
Along those same lines...."believers" will never know they were wrong. :mrgreen:

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:49 pm

Firedome8 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:14 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:33 pm
ok, Try Ravi Zacharias or William Lane Craig

There is a whole world of independantly verifiable evidence out there. You choose to overlook it. Is creation not tangible ? How about intelligent design ? You can't really believe in molecules to man evolution ? You seem to smart for that.
Brian
What intelligence made god??
I will have to check out William, Ravi is very good and well versed on all world views.
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by exhaustgases » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:10 pm

FuelieNova wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm
I always laugh at these kind of threads... I am a believer.
My thoughts always are... we will see who's right when you die :shock: until then the debate will go on forever.
Tg
Right on !
The day will come they will know for sure. I personally would like to know what it is like to have no hope? All Haters and deniers of the Almighty essentially have no hope, so what happens that day of a last breath? Do they all the sudden start praying? With no hope what even keeps them going?

And with my previous explanation of the universe and nothingness. I guess we have some with such small minds they can not comprehend infinity.
How small is small? How big is big? How big or small is nothingness? If you can understand some aspect of that you can understand the almighty.
Nothing self engineers or self creates, the something we live in and on did not just happen, the something we are did not just happen. Mathematics and those precious physical laws (some here swear by), of everything did not just occur out of nothing with zero thought process, your an idiot if you think so. Like the planets are just going to choose their positions and the earth just decided the correct distance from the sun, and the earth thought yeah I need water, oil, iron and all that stuff the environmentalists hate. Oh then all the various species of animals just formed from nothing, I just wonder why they all just can't mate with each other and we could have a real mix match of creatures here. What idiocy drives the stupid minds?
Communism started the evil lution crap, so that makes it bit more understandable.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by exhaustgases » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:20 pm

sanfordandson wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:34 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:26 pm
FuelieNova wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm
I always laugh at these kind of threads... I am a believer.
My thoughts always are... we will see who's right when you die :shock: until then the debate will go on forever.
Tg
I think thats by design, the bible is the best documented most studied and debated book in human history... Looks like God authored "the" best seller. :)
Along those same lines...."believers" will never know they were wrong. :mrgreen:
You mention believers. What about experiencers?

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:45 pm

exhaustgases wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:10 pm
FuelieNova wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm
I always laugh at these kind of threads... I am a believer.
My thoughts always are... we will see who's right when you die :shock: until then the debate will go on forever.
Tg
Right on !
The day will come they will know for sure. I personally would like to know what it is like to have no hope? All Haters and deniers of the Almighty essentially have no hope, so what happens that day of a last breath? Do they all the sudden start praying? With no hope what even keeps them going?

And with my previous explanation of the universe and nothingness. I guess we have some with such small minds they can not comprehend infinity.
How small is small? How big is big? How big or small is nothingness? If you can understand some aspect of that you can understand the almighty.
Nothing self engineers or self creates, the something we live in and on did not just happen, the something we are did not just happen. Mathematics and those precious physical laws (some here swear by), of everything did not just occur out of nothing with zero thought process, your an idiot if you think so. Like the planets are just going to choose their positions and the earth just decided the correct distance from the sun, and the earth thought yeah I need water, oil, iron and all that stuff the environmentalists hate. Oh then all the various species of animals just formed from nothing, I just wonder why they all just can't mate with each other and we could have a real mix match of creatures here. What idiocy drives the stupid minds?
Communism started the evil lution crap, so that makes it bit more understandable.
That’s for authoring a great example of an argument from ignorance.

“I caynt understayind how nun uhh dis werks. Gawd musta dun eeyit!!!”

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:47 pm

exhaustgases wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:20 pm
sanfordandson wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:34 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:26 pm


I think thats by design, the bible is the best documented most studied and debated book in human history... Looks like God authored "the" best seller. :)
Along those same lines...."believers" will never know they were wrong. :mrgreen:
You mention believers. What about experiencers?
How do you know that you’re experiencing a god, and that you’re not just delusional, or invoking a god to explain what you don’t or can’t understand?

You don’t know. You believe.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:18 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:47 pm
exhaustgases wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:20 pm
sanfordandson wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:34 pm


Along those same lines...."believers" will never know they were wrong. :mrgreen:
You mention believers. What about experiencers?
How do you know that you’re experiencing a god, and that you’re not just delusional, or invoking a god to explain what you don’t or can’t understand?

You don’t know. You believe.
You will Know! When I started studying religions the supporting evidence for the Bible was compelling in it's own right but the personal life changing transformation of me and those around me was the best evidence of a living God who personal interacts with those who "truly" seek Him but thats what the scripture says will happen.
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:47 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:18 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:47 pm
exhaustgases wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:20 pm


You mention believers. What about experiencers?
How do you know that you’re experiencing a god, and that you’re not just delusional, or invoking a god to explain what you don’t or can’t understand?

You don’t know. You believe.
You will Know!

Another baseless claim. There is a pattern forming. :lol:
GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:18 pm
When I started studying religions the supporting evidence for the Bible was compelling in it's own right but the personal life changing transformation of me and those around me was the best evidence of a living God who personal interacts with those who "truly" seek Him but thats what the scripture says will happen.
Plenty of people have personal life changing transformations on their own. I am one of them. My life is far more fulfilling and meaningful than it was when I was a Christian. Dedicating one’s self to being internally honest is a truly liberating experience. You should try it sometime. It is tough to let go of that hegemonic security blanket that has been pounded into your psyche, but doing so is like waking up from a black and white dream into a full spectrum glorious sunrise.

My understanding of math, physics,quantum physics, cosmology, biology, and various other scientific topics has transformed my life and the way I look at reality. I marvel at it the more I understand it, and I realize that my understanding of the true nature of reality at its deepest level is feeble at best. I can appreciate the beauty though, and I can appreciate my existence, and I can appreciate the truths we have uncovered as a species. I love living in the mystery. You can’t even begin to experience what that is like until you stop lying to yourself and deluding yourself into thinking that a 2000 year old book had all the answers.

Also, to be clear, I’ve never even hinted that one can’t make their lives better through a belief in a deity. There are a lot of people for whom that concept provides a reference point in a sea of ambiguity. That doesn’t make it true though. I’m interested in what is true, and I understand what method has the best track record for uncovering truth. Also, and this is the key, I admit it when I don’t know something. That is the key to all of this. You guys believe you know answers that you just don’t know. When i ask for the reasoning behind your beliefs, I get answers like “I just know”, and “faith”, and “you’d know if you opened your heart”. These answers provide equivalent justification for any claim. They are useless at uncovering the truth.


Anything you can achieve by believing in a god, you can achieve by believing in yourself. The power of positive thinking works whether or not the inspiration for that postivity is real.

Furthermore, that fact that my existence is finite motivates me to live, love, and experience all this world had to offer, while having fun, and contributing to society in ways that will live on beyond me. I think the idea of eternal life is absurd, and the notion of it diminishes our experience.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:55 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:47 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:47 pm
exhaustgases wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:20 pm


You mention believers. What about experiencers?
How do you know that you’re experiencing a god, and that you’re not just delusional, or invoking a god to explain what you don’t or can’t understand?

You don’t know. You believe.
You will Know!



Another baseless claim. There is a pattern forming. :lol:
GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:18 pm
When I started studying religions the supporting evidence for the Bible was compelling in it's own right but the personal life changing transformation of me and those around me was the best evidence of a living God who personal interacts with those who "truly" seek Him but thats what the scripture says will happen.
Plenty of people have personal life changing transformations on their own. I am one of them. My life is far more fulfilling and meaningful than it was when I was a Christian. Dedicating one’s self to being internally honest is a truly liberating experience. You should try it sometime. It is tough to let go of that hegemonic security blanket that has been pounded into your psyche, but doing so is like waking up from a black and white dream into a full spectrum glorious sunrise.

My understanding of math, physics,quantum physics, cosmology, biology, and various other scientific topics has transformed my life and the way I look at reality. I marvel at it the more I understand it, and I realize that my understanding of the true nature of reality at its deepest level is feeble at best. I can appreciate the beauty though, and I can appreciate my existence, and I can appreciate the truths we have uncovered as a species. I love living in the mystery. You can’t even begin to experience what that is like until you stop lying to yourself and deluding yourself into thinking that a 2000 year old book had all the answers.

Also, to be clear, I’ve never even hinted that one can’t make their lives better through a belief in a deity. There are a lot of people for whom that concept provides a reference point in a sea of ambiguity. That doesn’t make it true though. I’m interested in what is true, and I understand what method has the best track record for uncovering truth. Anything you can achieve by believing in a god, you can achieve by believing in yourself. The power of positive thinking works whether or not the inspiration for that postivity is real.

Furthermore, that fact that my existence is finite motivates me to live, love, and experience all this world had to offer, while having fun, and contributing to society in ways that will live on beyond me. I think the idea of eternal life is absurd, and the notion of it diminishes our experience.
Your only 2000 years behind the writers of the New Testament and over 3000 years behind the writers of the Old Testament, The scientific relevance of the scripture is probably one of the most interesting things it presents, a scripture in Hebrews got me interested in the Quantum Sciences. but being a "self proclaimed Christian" you probably already know that.
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:07 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:55 pm




Your only 2000 years behind the writers of the New Testament and over 3000 years behind the writers of the Old Testament, The scientific relevance of the scripture is probably one of the most interesting things it presents, a scripture in Hebrews got me interested in the Quantum Sciences. but being a "self proclaimed Christian" you probably already know that.
Look folks, a backhanded insult about how I wasn’t a good Christian when i was a believer. Nice! Jesus would be proud of you (if he weren’t fictional). :lol:

Seriously, If you truly believe that the Bible is scientifically accurate, we should stop this conversation.

Remember what i said about believers twisting things to fit their beliefs? Yeah. Thanks for pointing out a example of that.

Anyone with a basic understanding of what science has uncovered about the earth, the sun, biology, and the cosmos only has to read genesis to figure out that the Bible is dead wrong when it comes to the explanation of what these phenomenon are, and the order they developed in. If it can’t get mundane and simple details like that right, it is laughable to suggest that it’s somehow accurate across the board from a scientific perspective.

Here’s an index of some of the scientific errors in the Bible. I hope you have some time, there’s a lot to cover.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... fic_errors

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:15 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:07 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:55 pm




Your only 2000 years behind the writers of the New Testament and over 3000 years behind the writers of the Old Testament, The scientific relevance of the scripture is probably one of the most interesting things it presents, a scripture in Hebrews got me interested in the Quantum Sciences. but being a "self proclaimed Christian" you probably already know that.
Look folks, a backhanded insult about how I wasn’t a good Christian when i was a believer. Nice! Jesus would be proud of you (if he weren’t fictional). :lol:

Seriously, If you truly believe that the Bible is scientifically accurate, we should stop this conversation.

Remember what i said about believers twisting things to fit their beliefs? Yeah. Thanks for pointing out a example of that.

Anyone with a basic understanding of what science has uncovered about the earth, the sun, biology, and the cosmos only has to read genesis to figure out that the Bible is dead wrong when it comes to the explanation of what these phenomenon are, and the order they developed in. If it can’t get mundane and simple details like that right, it is laughable to suggest that it’s somehow accurate across the board from a scientific perspective.

Here’s an index of some of the scientific errors in the Bible. I hope you have some time, there’s a lot to cover.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... fic_errors
Please demonstrate?
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THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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