Faith is not a reliable path to truth

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GRTfast
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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:48 pm

exhaustgases wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:30 pm
What is the universe? Do you mean never ending space? Do you mean never ending space with material objects floating around in it?
So the non believers here believe that since no one created anything at all. It just some how decided to exist? That alone proves how illogical being an atheist is. So then where did the never ending space come from? Then how could it just start filling with for lack of a better word junk? How could that junk suddenly be formed in mathematical perfection and form from nothing? Sorry but commie science is so illogical.
So what kind of faith would someone need to have to believe tons and tons of stuff just popped into existence with no help and with nothing to make it from? And best of all why? How can it even happen with no reason? And again if its a big bang, where did that energy come from when there was nothing? Talk about faith. [-X
You’re making use of the either/or fallacy. You’re asserting that either god made the universe, or it popped into existence out of nothing. You are lost in your own misunderstanding. No one in the scientific community is truly claiming that everything came from nothing. This is a straw man created by creationists.

You need to demonstrate that “nothing” existed. So far, it is just a concept in the minds of humans.

Also, any claim you can make about a god always existing can also apply to the universe, since we don’t fully understand it’s nature.

You are radically outmatched in this conversation, and you’re making yourself look stupid to those who grasp the concepts. I’d bow out if I were you. Your call.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by j-c-c » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:04 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:03 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Be careful man, Those are strong words.
They are honest words. The bible sanctions slavery, rape, murder, and infinite punishment for finite crimes. Every one of those things is patently immoral, and I have no qualms in saying so.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 pm
Hardened atheists are basically unreasonable
:lol:

The truth is, atheists aren't gullible. As the title of the thread states, faith is not a reliable path to truth. It is beyond ironic that someone who believes radically fantastical claims without any good reason would refer to someone who doesn't as unreasonable. Thanks for the chuckle
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 pm
there is often a fewer guys just reading along who may genuinely be looking for truth and answers.
That is correct. That is what I was doing that led me to become an atheist.

You aren't interested in what is actually true. If you were, you wouldn't start with an assumption, then try to interpret what you observe in such a way that it jives with your assumption. You would only believe what there is sufficient evidence to warrant belief in, and you would educate yourself about what constitutes actual evidence.

Believers are so caught up in the idea that there has to be an answer that they will accept answers that aren't sufficiently supported because it makes them feel good. The honest truth is, there are questions that we don't have answers for, and may never have answers for. Part of being honest with yourself involves accepting this fact of reality. Invoking a god to fill in the gaps in your understanding is nothing more than a feel-good stop gap measure for your own psychological comfort.

You are not asking for advice, but IMO, your last paragraph above should have been your mic drop moment, and then walk away. =D>

You have covered all your bases well.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by Firedome8 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:14 pm

prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:33 pm
ok, Try Ravi Zacharias or William Lane Craig

There is a whole world of independantly verifiable evidence out there. You choose to overlook it. Is creation not tangible ? How about intelligent design ? You can't really believe in molecules to man evolution ? You seem to smart for that.
Brian
What intelligence made god??

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:14 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:41 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:10 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:34 pm


I agree with all of that, I was just pointing out that morality has its roots in biology and culture, and that there is no need to invoke a god.
Please show me biological morality... If it comes from culture then you would have to include the 3000+ years of biblical teaching that has encompassed the entire world and the effect it has had.
Start here, then google “mirror neurons” and “morality evolution in social species”.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ty_animals



https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ty_animals
You can teach animals in captivity almost anything considering they are intelligently designed, I can tell my dog to sit and it will, I can tell it stop when it's attacking and it will so does this prove it speaks English? I can use hand signals as well so does that mean it knows sign language? Visit them in their natural habitat and watch them kill each other for a piece of lunch meat or you because you have the lunch meat and then tell me how moral they are.

Reminds me of the recent story of the guy that wanted his picture taken with a wounded bear and ended up with a viral video of the bear mauling him to death while our highly evolved humans stood around recording it instead of saving his life.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 pm

GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:14 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:41 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:10 pm


Please show me biological morality... If it comes from culture then you would have to include the 3000+ years of biblical teaching that has encompassed the entire world and the effect it has had.
Start here, then google “mirror neurons” and “morality evolution in social species”.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ty_animals



https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ty_animals
You can teach animals in captivity almost anything considering they are intelligently designed, I can tell my dog to sit and it will, I can tell it stop when it's attacking and it will so does this prove it speaks English? I can use hand signals as well so does that mean it knows sign language? Visit them in their natural habitat and watch them kill each other for a piece of lunch meat or you because you have the lunch meat and then tell me how moral they are.

Reminds me of the recent story of the guy that wanted his picture taken with a wounded bear and ended up with a viral video of the bear mauling him to death while our highly evolved humans stood around recording it instead of saving his life.
This type of behavior is observed in nature, in many species. Stop trying to fit the evidence into a frame that is compatible with your beliefs. If you’re interested, dig deeper and learn about it yourself. Or don’t. It doesn’t bother me either way.

Also, you’ve still not backed your initial claims in this thread. Don’t think I haven’t forgot.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:21 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:04 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:03 pm
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Be careful man, Those are strong words.
They are honest words. The bible sanctions slavery, rape, murder, and infinite punishment for finite crimes. Every one of those things is patently immoral, and I have no qualms in saying so.
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 pm
Hardened atheists are basically unreasonable
:lol:

The truth is, atheists aren't gullible. As the title of the thread states, faith is not a reliable path to truth. It is beyond ironic that someone who believes radically fantastical claims without any good reason would refer to someone who doesn't as unreasonable. Thanks for the chuckle
prairiehotrodder wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 pm
there is often a fewer guys just reading along who may genuinely be looking for truth and answers.
That is correct. That is what I was doing that led me to become an atheist.

You aren't interested in what is actually true. If you were, you wouldn't start with an assumption, then try to interpret what you observe in such a way that it jives with your assumption. You would only believe what there is sufficient evidence to warrant belief in, and you would educate yourself about what constitutes actual evidence.

Believers are so caught up in the idea that there has to be an answer that they will accept answers that aren't sufficiently supported because it makes them feel good. The honest truth is, there are questions that we don't have answers for, and may never have answers for. Part of being honest with yourself involves accepting this fact of reality. Invoking a god to fill in the gaps in your understanding is nothing more than a feel-good stop gap measure for your own psychological comfort.

You are not asking for advice, but IMO, your last paragraph above should have been your mic drop moment, and then walk away. =D>

You have covered all your bases well.
Thats what the Bible teaches! "I don't know" is an actual answer, thankfully most answers are there if your willing to look. Unfortunately most people are not looking for answers, they are looking for people to agree with them so they can sit around and bitch about life instead of taking the info available to change things.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:26 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:14 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:41 pm


Start here, then google “mirror neurons” and “morality evolution in social species”.

https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ty_animals



https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/articl ... ty_animals
You can teach animals in captivity almost anything considering they are intelligently designed, I can tell my dog to sit and it will, I can tell it stop when it's attacking and it will so does this prove it speaks English? I can use hand signals as well so does that mean it knows sign language? Visit them in their natural habitat and watch them kill each other for a piece of lunch meat or you because you have the lunch meat and then tell me how moral they are.

Reminds me of the recent story of the guy that wanted his picture taken with a wounded bear and ended up with a viral video of the bear mauling him to death while our highly evolved humans stood around recording it instead of saving his life.
This type of behavior is observed in nature, in many species. Stop trying to fit the evidence into a frame that is compatible with your beliefs. If you’re interested, dig deeper and learn about it yourself. Or don’t. It doesn’t bother me either way.

Also, you’ve still not backed your initial claims in this thread. Don’t think I haven’t forgot.
Been there, done that. I am still waiting for your magical proof, it will be interesting to see if it's different then what I have seen in the past 17 years.

I saw one new twist lately where a guy was trying to push the gap theory but he believed the earth was less than 10,000 years old... If you knew anything about that you would find the humor in it.

The entire video is wrong... Pick a part and school me!

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by j-c-c » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:28 pm

GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:21 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:04 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:03 pm


They are honest words. The bible sanctions slavery, rape, murder, and infinite punishment for finite crimes. Every one of those things is patently immoral, and I have no qualms in saying so.


:lol:

The truth is, atheists aren't gullible. As the title of the thread states, faith is not a reliable path to truth. It is beyond ironic that someone who believes radically fantastical claims without any good reason would refer to someone who doesn't as unreasonable. Thanks for the chuckle



That is correct. That is what I was doing that led me to become an atheist.

You aren't interested in what is actually true. If you were, you wouldn't start with an assumption, then try to interpret what you observe in such a way that it jives with your assumption. You would only believe what there is sufficient evidence to warrant belief in, and you would educate yourself about what constitutes actual evidence.

Believers are so caught up in the idea that there has to be an answer that they will accept answers that aren't sufficiently supported because it makes them feel good. The honest truth is, there are questions that we don't have answers for, and may never have answers for. Part of being honest with yourself involves accepting this fact of reality. Invoking a god to fill in the gaps in your understanding is nothing more than a feel-good stop gap measure for your own psychological comfort.

You are not asking for advice, but IMO, your last paragraph above should have been your mic drop moment, and then walk away. =D>

You have covered all your bases well.
Thats what the Bible teaches! "I don't know" is an actual answer, thankfully most answers are there if your willing to look. Unfortunately most people are not looking for answers, they are looking for people to agree with them so they can sit around and bitch about life instead of taking the info available to change things.
And yet there is not one single example of "I don't know" from the Bible shared on this entire thread.
Why?
That is not meant as slam dunk, more of some should practice what they preach.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:33 pm

GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:26 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:14 pm


You can teach animals in captivity almost anything considering they are intelligently designed, I can tell my dog to sit and it will, I can tell it stop when it's attacking and it will so does this prove it speaks English? I can use hand signals as well so does that mean it knows sign language? Visit them in their natural habitat and watch them kill each other for a piece of lunch meat or you because you have the lunch meat and then tell me how moral they are.

Reminds me of the recent story of the guy that wanted his picture taken with a wounded bear and ended up with a viral video of the bear mauling him to death while our highly evolved humans stood around recording it instead of saving his life.
This type of behavior is observed in nature, in many species. Stop trying to fit the evidence into a frame that is compatible with your beliefs. If you’re interested, dig deeper and learn about it yourself. Or don’t. It doesn’t bother me either way.

Also, you’ve still not backed your initial claims in this thread. Don’t think I haven’t forgot.
Been there, done that. I am still waiting for your magical proof, it will be interesting to see if it's different then what I have seen in the past 17 years.

I saw one new twist lately where a guy was trying to push the gap theory but he believed the earth was less than 10,000 years old... If you knew anything about that you would find the humor in it.

The entire video is wrong... Pick a part and school me!
Matt’s reasoning has already been stated in the video. You claim it’s all incorrect. Back your claim, or don’t. I bet I can guess which one you’ll do. :roll:

This thread is your lesson for the day. Tuition is free!! :)

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:39 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:28 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:21 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:04 pm



You are not asking for advice, but IMO, your last paragraph above should have been your mic drop moment, and then walk away. =D>

You have covered all your bases well.
Thats what the Bible teaches! "I don't know" is an actual answer, thankfully most answers are there if your willing to look. Unfortunately most people are not looking for answers, they are looking for people to agree with them so they can sit around and bitch about life instead of taking the info available to change things.
And yet there is not one single example of "I don't know" from the Bible shared on this entire thread.
Why?
That is not meant as slam dunk, more of some should practice what they preach.
Is it wrong to study something well enough to be able to answer question about a subject?

I find it interesting that if a believer can't answer the questions it's proof that the bible is wrong and if they can answer the questions it's proof that the bible is wrong.
Last edited by GARY C on Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:41 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:33 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:26 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:18 pm


This type of behavior is observed in nature, in many species. Stop trying to fit the evidence into a frame that is compatible with your beliefs. If you’re interested, dig deeper and learn about it yourself. Or don’t. It doesn’t bother me either way.

Also, you’ve still not backed your initial claims in this thread. Don’t think I haven’t forgot.
Been there, done that. I am still waiting for your magical proof, it will be interesting to see if it's different then what I have seen in the past 17 years.

I saw one new twist lately where a guy was trying to push the gap theory but he believed the earth was less than 10,000 years old... If you knew anything about that you would find the humor in it.

The entire video is wrong... Pick a part and school me!
Matt’s reasoning has already been stated in the video. You claim it’s all incorrect. Back your claim, or don’t. I bet I can guess which one you’ll do. :roll:

This thread is your lesson for the day. Tuition is free!! :)
My claim is it is all incorrect, if you can prove his claims then I will stand corrected!

It is all covered here... http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51168

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GRTfast » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:56 pm

GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:41 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:33 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:26 pm

Been there, done that. I am still waiting for your magical proof, it will be interesting to see if it's different then what I have seen in the past 17 years.

I saw one new twist lately where a guy was trying to push the gap theory but he believed the earth was less than 10,000 years old... If you knew anything about that you would find the humor in it.

The entire video is wrong... Pick a part and school me!
Matt’s reasoning has already been stated in the video. You claim it’s all incorrect. Back your claim, or don’t. I bet I can guess which one you’ll do. :roll:

This thread is your lesson for the day. Tuition is free!! :)
My claim is it is all incorrect, if you can prove his claims then I will stand corrected!

It is all covered here... http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51168
What are his positive claims from the video that you would like me to prove? Please cite them with the video timestamp.

You can save your time if you’d like. There aren’t any positive claims in the video. There is no burden of proof on anything he says. If you think there is a burden of proof on something he says in the video, and you’d like to continue this lesson, identify it.

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by lefty o » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:06 pm

did i say just crack pipe, best add needle, joint and others to it too!

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by GARY C » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:12 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:56 pm
GARY C wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:41 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:33 pm


Matt’s reasoning has already been stated in the video. You claim it’s all incorrect. Back your claim, or don’t. I bet I can guess which one you’ll do. :roll:

This thread is your lesson for the day. Tuition is free!! :)
My claim is it is all incorrect, if you can prove his claims then I will stand corrected!

It is all covered here... http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=51168
What are his positive claims from the video that you would like me to prove? Please cite them with the video timestamp.

You can save your time if you’d like. There aren’t any positive claims in the video. There is no burden of proof on anything he says. If you think there is a burden of proof on something he says in the video, and you’d like to continue this lesson, identify it.
I will wait for your evidence and see if I can learn something new from your great lesson... :)

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Re: Faith is not a reliable path to truth

Post by David Redszus » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:08 am

show me independently verifiable evidence. If its just stuff written in a book it doesn't count.
That of course means that just stuff contained in the bible doesn't count either
Let me take you back to the Bible and the value of your soul. Do you know you have a soul ? How does a soul evolve ? Where does it come from ? God says it has great value.
You never mention which bible and to which part you refer.

I do not have a soul and neither does anyone else. They may think they do and that's fine with me.

Many people claim to have spoken to god and even cried to god. God has never spoken to anyone, ever.
I would enjoy viewing evidence to the contrary.

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