Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by 1989TransAm » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:29 pm

We are paying 69% of the NATO bill. Germany is the real slacker at 1.2% when you factor in their GDP.

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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by David Redszus » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:41 am

The NATO funding agreement signed in 2014, well before Trump became president, called for each member nation to
spend 2% of their GDP on its military.

It does not represent the NATO budget in any way. It merely says each member must carry its own financial weight.
Historically, the US has carried the heavy end of the log; both with regard to percentage of GDP and due to the much larger GDP of the US. The money spent on defense by the US is not all spent in Europe; and that's the point.

While European NATO members need only spend money for a military to protect their small countries, the US is committed to protecting much of the rest of the world. Even if NATO members did cough up the military expenditures per their agreement, it does not mean that the US will reduce its European military spending. It does mean a stronger, more modern NATO would require the Russians to try to match the increased spending, which they cannot do and would curtail their global military adventures.

But the US could then direct increased military resources to the Asian theater and to the middle east as well.
It would also put additional economic pressure on China. The increased need for military spending in Europe and
China would allow a stronger bargaining position with regard to balanced tariffs worldwide.

Trump is playing chess; global politicians still think they are playing checkers with Obama or Bush.

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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by mk e » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 am

1989TransAm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:29 pm
We are paying 69% of the NATO bill. Germany is the real slacker at 1.2% when you factor in their GDP.
There is no NATO bill, it's not a club, it doesn't have does. I don't know where you got that figure or how it was calculated but its nonsense.

If we are unhappy with the amount we spend on "defense" or how we allocate our forces orcspending then we are free to to change them. The US president is the commander of US forces, he may deploy them as he wishes.....there is no need for whining.
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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by David Redszus » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:20 am

mk e wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 am
1989TransAm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:29 pm
We are paying 69% of the NATO bill. Germany is the real slacker at 1.2% when you factor in their GDP.
There is no NATO bill, it's not a club, it doesn't have does. I don't know where you got that figure or how it was calculated but its nonsense.

If we are unhappy with the amount we spend on "defense" or how we allocate our forces orcspending then we are free to to change them. The US president is the commander of US forces, he may deploy them as he wishes.....there is no need for whining.
Actually NATO is a club and it's members have agreed to certain rules. Trump is totally correct to demand those
members live up to their commitments...or else the US does not need to honor our commitments either.

The "dues" are simply military expenditures that can be spent within their own countries. What's the big deal?
They don't like the military and prefer social programs and immigration welfare.

Too bad. That's life.

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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by 1989TransAm » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:57 pm

mk e wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:06 am
1989TransAm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:29 pm
We are paying 69% of the NATO bill. Germany is the real slacker at 1.2% when you factor in their GDP.
There is no NATO bill, it's not a club, it doesn't have does. I don't know where you got that figure or how it was calculated but its nonsense.

If we are unhappy with the amount we spend on "defense" or how we allocate our forces orcspending then we are free to to change them. The US president is the commander of US forces, he may deploy them as he wishes.....there is no need for whining.
You are correct, it is not a bill. However it has rules and the members agreed to the rules when they signed up.

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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by mk e » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:10 pm

1989TransAm wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:57 pm

You are correct, it is not a bill. However it has rules and the members agreed to the rules when they signed up.
The 2% spending is a goal agreed in 2014. It's not a rule, there is no actual requirement or punishment for not doing it. That is probably a flaw in the treaty but it is what it is and the US has used it to maintain our influence over Europe by offering to help.

If we no longer believe that is something we want to do, we should stop doing it. Germany and France are not going to attack each other if we leave and th we'd Soviet union no longer exists so they aren't going to takeover Europe. Russia is actively grabbing territory when they see an opening.....but Europe more than has the resources to deal with them if they choose and were only an article 5 phone call away if things heat up....so there is no reason in the world for us to be there.

I say stop whining and withdraw the troops.
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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by David Redszus » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:28 pm

I say stop whining and withdraw the troops.
The troops stationed in Europe are only a small sliver of the real issues.

We use Europe as a staging platform in order to conduct missions in the middle east and
elsewhere. Europe is a medical trauma center of massive proportions, fuel depots, ammunition depots,
air bases, and nuclear weapons installations. We would be ineffective on a global stage if we could not deploy
our military resources in Europe. They know this and have cheated on their agreements.

Without US support, the Russian army would overrun Europe in a matter of weeks.
The Europeans, even while they may possess military hardware, have not demonstrated an
inclination to fight a real war. Where there is no will there is no way.

Putin has out foxed Merkle with their gas pipeline. The krauts stupidly gave up their "dirty" nuclear
power capability in favor of "clean" natural gas. Now they are tethered to the whims of the Kremlin.

If Trump can shame Germany into a more balanced and stable energy position, it would reduce Putin's grasp on
Merkle's fat ass. Why would we allow Germany, the richest country in Europe, to fund Putin's lagging economy
while the krauts refuse to fund their own defense?

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Re: Canada will not double its defence budget despite calls from Trump: Trudeau

Post by Ratu » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:51 pm

Trudeu is correct. So do not increase the Canadian military spending. It is enough already. In fact it ought to be much, much less. He ought to join the SCC, get Canada involved in the New Silk Road, do JVs with Russia and China in the Arctic, open Canda's ports and trade. Then much of the military can be retired. It is a non-productive waste which achieves not much of anything anyway.

President Trump got it right when he said that NATO was obsolete. It serves no purpose whatsoever. There is no Russian threat. None. Nothing at all. Time for the US govt to save the people's money and withdraw from Europe. Bring the troops back home to the US mainland. Return the saved money to the poor US taxpayer.

As far as all this nonsense about demanding the NATO members increase military spending to the 2% target, well, that's just the military-industrial guys lobbying to make some extra profit out of taxpayers. The US taxpayer has been raped good and hard for decades. Now comes a push to bilch the Europeans a bit more. This is just a money grab. What worries these guys the most is if Europeans, Russians, Arabs, Persians, Chinese etc. end up freely trading across the World Island, realising they do not need to be fearful of each other and that they do not need to purchase all the military crap they've been wasting money on for decades (much of it sourced at great expense from the USA).

Quoting, "Without US support, the Russian army would overrun Europe in a matter of weeks."

What fictitious fear-mongering nonsense.

The reality is that the USSR military could have partially accomplished that feat back in the time of the Cold War regardless of the presence of the US military, so long as hostilities remained conventional. The trouble for the USSR, and for Europe, was that the US planned to use nuclear weapons in Europe should the USSR begin to militarily prevail (which it would have within the first 12 hours of war). That in turn would have degenerated into all out nuclear war and guaranteed mutually assured destruction. The result would have gone like this:
Part 1 the end of Europe.
Part 2 the end of USSR and of North America, USA included and the end of the UK.

Sane heads prevailed and the USSR never attempted an invasion. On the other hand, the miracles of the USSR's own socialist economy soon did what no military on the planet could have achieved at the time and destroyed the USSR stone cold dead, military and all.

Since the collpase of the USSR there has been no military threat of invasion of Europe whatsoever. None.

It has been many decades since the final collapse of the USSR. There is no USSR existent any longer. Russia is not the USSR. Belarus is not the USSR. Ukraine is not the USSR. Georgia is not the USSR. Get the idea? Now the point to understand is that there is no USSR-type military existent any longer either. It is long departed. It fell apart along with the rest of that horrible tyranny, the USSR.

None of the nations which were at one time subsumed into the USSR are the USSR or anything like it. They have different political systems. Their cultures and values and religions, all once ruthlessly supressed, have re-emerged and developed. Their societies are completely different in strucure, as well as in expression, to that which was allowed them during the time of the USSR. None of these independent countries is directed towards attacking and occupying Europe. None. Not even a single solitary one of them. Further, none of them posesses the military means to even make the attempt. Not even Russia.

What is going on is that there are interests which fear the outbreak of unfettered international trade of goods, services, finance and skilled labour all across the Eurasian landmass, especially when it is not intermediated and controlled by those interests. The US taxpayer has been used as the means to finance efforts to prevent this much feared situation from developing. But now times are changing. European peoples are coming to the realisation that trade is far preferable to yet more war. Hence the ramping up of anti-Russian hysteria, propaganda, lies and fibs by those who have much to lose (like control over others). European common people are not keen to revist another war in Europe in order to fight and die for US global interests. And so it is likely that they just won't, NATO notwithstanding. What they will do though is trade and they will certainly trade with Russia. What they will do is learn from the Russian experience and return to their own local culture, language, tradition, identity and values. Global empire is a dead ideology for them. That includes US globalism and US empire. It likely includes US culture as well.

Meanwhile, back in the US homeland, the people of the US have a decision to make. Will they volunteer to continue to pay for military adventurism overeas? Do they wish to continue to see everything around them (their societies, culture, infrastructure, standard of living, expectations, life style, language, civilisation, economic situation, education, jobs, food, services etc etc etc etc) continue to be sacrificed and downgraded in order to fund empire? The choice for them is stark, empire or personal situation, poverty or wealth, perdition or civilisation.

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