Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

This is an Admin / Moderator NO GO ZONE. You're on your own.

Moderator: Team

j-c-c
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2675
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 pm

engineczar wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:55 am
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:45 am
engineczar wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:39 am


Until what? It's either settled or it's not.
Hint ,it was "settled" the earth was flat until......

I know its hard to live with uncertainty, but I'm pretty certain its certain those of us living today, will never live until everything is "settled", and I'm Ok with that. If you want to declare anything "settled", its still your choice.
I not calling it settled. At this point you are.
If you say so, what then is your counter?

I did use the term "pretty certain", correct?

gmrocket
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 pm
Location: Grimsby Ontario

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by gmrocket » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:35 pm

Your coming around, slowly.

At least you admit he did some fancy double talking

It's a fresh discovery, let's just wait and see.

do some real research....is that ok with you? Before dismissing it...or is that not the narrative?

GRTfast
Expert
Expert
Posts: 900
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:26 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by GRTfast » Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:42 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:35 pm
Your coming around, slowly.

At least you admit he did some fancy double talking

It's a fresh discovery, let's just wait and see.

do some real research....is that ok with you? Before dismissing it...or is that not the narrative?
No, it's not fancy double talk. He knows it's not the major contributor for the reasons I outlined, which are in the actual report (provided here again at the end of this post for clarity). When the "layperson" only reads the article, and doesn't do their due diligence, they have a completely incorrect impression of what is being said, they invent their own (false) pretense, and consequently, they reach a false conclusion. Amazingly, that false conclusion based on ignorance and misunderstanding aligns with their political stance. Weird huh? :lol:

This is how the scientists know the bulk contributor to the melting is the heat from the volcano (posted again for clarity):

From the actual journal published scientific report (this is how he knows it's not the bulk contributor, and why only using articles to make a point is a flawed methodology):

"Based on the observed 3He excesses, the mantle-derived heat at the front of the ice shelf cavity is 32 ± 12 J kg−1 of seawater. This excess heat is small compared to the heat content of CDW20 (ca. 12 kJ kg−1), demonstrating that volcanic heat does not contribute significantly to the glacial melt observed in the ocean at the front of the ice shelf. "

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04421-3

The effect is undetermined, but it can't possibly be the bulk based on the total heat contribution from the volcano being so minuscule. It isn't physically possible based on the amount of heat the volcano is providing, and the amount of heat the Circumpolar Deep Water contains, which is around 200-400 times as much as the volcanic heat is contributing. How could it be the majority contributor if the heat is only 0.005-0.0025 of the heat present?

rebelrouser
Pro
Pro
Posts: 240
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:25 pm

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by rebelrouser » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:45 pm

I will post one example caused by excessive carbon in the atmosphere, which I have discovered with testing for myself. Every time it rains the water in my pool turns cloudy, testing revels the PH has gotten out of wack. Just one minor proof of the science. My hot tub which is always covered and never gets rain water has much more stable PH.

https://www.sciencelawenvironment.com/2 ... acid-rain/

The acid rain is causing almost as much concern as the rising temperature, many animals and plants are very sensitive to PH
Frogs for example are reducing in numbers, they think its the PH, Reefs are affected as well.

Not a scientist, but it makes sense to me.

gmrocket
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1662
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 pm
Location: Grimsby Ontario

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by gmrocket » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:57 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:42 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:35 pm
Your coming around, slowly.

At least you admit he did some fancy double talking

It's a fresh discovery, let's just wait and see.

do some real research....is that ok with you? Before dismissing it...or is that not the narrative?
No, it's not fancy double talk. He knows it's not the major contributor for the reasons I outlined, which are in the actual report (provided here again at the end of this post for clarity). When the "layperson" only reads the article, and doesn't do their due diligence, they have a completely incorrect impression of what is being said, they invent their own (false) pretense, and consequently, they reach a false conclusion. Amazingly, that false conclusion based on ignorance and misunderstanding aligns with their political stance. Weird huh? :lol:

This is how the scientists know the bulk contributor to the melting is the heat from the volcano (posted again for clarity):

From the actual journal published scientific report (this is how he knows it's not the bulk contributor, and why only using articles to make a point is a flawed methodology):

"Based on the observed 3He excesses, the mantle-derived heat at the front of the ice shelf cavity is 32 ± 12 J kg−1 of seawater. This excess heat is small compared to the heat content of CDW20 (ca. 12 kJ kg−1), demonstrating that volcanic heat does not contribute significantly to the glacial melt observed in the ocean at the front of the ice shelf. "

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04421-3

The effect is undetermined, but it can't possibly be the bulk based on the total heat contribution from the volcano being so minuscule. It isn't physically possible based on the amount of heat the volcano is providing, and the amount of heat the Circumpolar Deep Water contains, which is around 200-400 times as much as the volcanic heat is contributing. How could it be the majority contributor if the heat is only 0.005-0.0025 of the heat present?
It was just discovered, and had no idea it was even there...when it was actually there for millions of years...volcanos just don't appear overnight.

I'm the one with an open mind and willing to wait..since it's under the glacier, it might have something to do with it, maybe not.

Yet they figured out its inconsequential within a few days...gotcha 😉

RevTheory
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4373
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:45 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by RevTheory » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:24 pm

The part I find interesting is the jump to conclusion that the volcano just had to have appeared due to the decreased weight of a melting ice cap. The old adage "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind here.

Maybe there's something to it. I'll wait...

GRTfast
Expert
Expert
Posts: 900
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:26 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by GRTfast » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:24 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:57 pm
GRTfast wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:42 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:35 pm
Your coming around, slowly.

At least you admit he did some fancy double talking

It's a fresh discovery, let's just wait and see.

do some real research....is that ok with you? Before dismissing it...or is that not the narrative?
No, it's not fancy double talk. He knows it's not the major contributor for the reasons I outlined, which are in the actual report (provided here again at the end of this post for clarity). When the "layperson" only reads the article, and doesn't do their due diligence, they have a completely incorrect impression of what is being said, they invent their own (false) pretense, and consequently, they reach a false conclusion. Amazingly, that false conclusion based on ignorance and misunderstanding aligns with their political stance. Weird huh? :lol:

This is how the scientists know the bulk contributor to the melting is the heat from the volcano (posted again for clarity):

From the actual journal published scientific report (this is how he knows it's not the bulk contributor, and why only using articles to make a point is a flawed methodology):

"Based on the observed 3He excesses, the mantle-derived heat at the front of the ice shelf cavity is 32 ± 12 J kg−1 of seawater. This excess heat is small compared to the heat content of CDW20 (ca. 12 kJ kg−1), demonstrating that volcanic heat does not contribute significantly to the glacial melt observed in the ocean at the front of the ice shelf. "

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-04421-3

The effect is undetermined, but it can't possibly be the bulk based on the total heat contribution from the volcano being so minuscule. It isn't physically possible based on the amount of heat the volcano is providing, and the amount of heat the Circumpolar Deep Water contains, which is around 200-400 times as much as the volcanic heat is contributing. How could it be the majority contributor if the heat is only 0.005-0.0025 of the heat present?
It was just discovered, and had no idea it was even there...when it was actually there for millions of years...volcanos just don't appear overnight.

I'm the one with an open mind and willing to wait..since it's under the glacier, it might have something to do with it, maybe not.

Yet they figured out its inconsequential within a few days...gotcha 😉
They were able to calculate the heat contribution from the volcano (within the stated confidence interval) based upon the He3 measured. This amount of heat is extremely small when compared to the heat in the water and the heat it takes to cause the observed melting. The effect on the melting is very localized and they are concerned about what this means for the structural stability of the glacier.

Your claim about him contradicting himself is a fabrication in your mind, based on a false pretense that you created. Instead of admitting you’re wrong in the face of evidence, you deflect and spin to try and make it seem like the scientists are in error with their reasoning, when the reality is, your special blend of ignorance and bravado won’t allow you to accept the truth.

The truth is, you have no idea what you’re talking about, much like TA, who posted this article as a gotcha, when it actually backs the scientific consensus that you guys deny. :lol:

You’ve been exposed. Ignoring that fact doesn’t make it any less real, or any less pathetic.

GRTfast
Expert
Expert
Posts: 900
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:26 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by GRTfast » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:33 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:24 pm
The part I find interesting is the jump to conclusion that the volcano just had to have appeared due to the decreased weight of a melting ice cap. The old adage "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind here.

Maybe there's something to it. I'll wait...
That is a hypothesis, not a conclusion.

And it’s not that the volcano “appeared”, it’s that it began erupting. That hypothesis is based upon observations of other undersea volcanos, and how they behave.

You keep thinking you have these”gotcha” observations, but you’re really just exposing your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Not understanding something isn’t an argument against it.
Last edited by GRTfast on Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

engineczar
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1326
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Dubois, Wy.

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by engineczar » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:35 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 pm
engineczar wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:55 am
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:45 am

Hint ,it was "settled" the earth was flat until......

I know its hard to live with uncertainty, but I'm pretty certain its certain those of us living today, will never live until everything is "settled", and I'm Ok with that. If you want to declare anything "settled", its still your choice.
I not calling it settled. At this point you are.
If you say so, what then is your counter?

I did use the term "pretty certain", correct?
My counter is that yes the climate is changing as it always had and always will. Openly polluting is bad. Cheap available power is good for the economy yet should be done as cleanly as the current technology allows. I still feel that the time span is too short and the numbers too small in the overall age of the planet to consider that the root cause (man) has been discovered. It's the whole causation/correlation thing.

GRTfast
Expert
Expert
Posts: 900
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:26 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by GRTfast » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:45 pm

engineczar wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:35 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 pm
engineczar wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:55 am


I not calling it settled. At this point you are.
If you say so, what then is your counter?

I did use the term "pretty certain", correct?
My counter is that yes the climate is changing as it always had and always will. Openly polluting is bad. Cheap available power is good for the economy yet should be done as cleanly as the current technology allows. I still feel that the time span is too short and the numbers too small in the overall age of the planet to consider that the root cause (man) has been discovered. It's the whole causation/correlation thing.
It’s fine to reject the evidence and conclusions showing definitively that humans are the major cause for the current change we observe. In order to be taken seriously though, you’ve got to present a better explanation, and you’ve go to do so as convincingly as the current science has.

RevTheory
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4373
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:45 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by RevTheory » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:10 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:33 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:24 pm
The part I find interesting is the jump to conclusion that the volcano just had to have appeared due to the decreased weight of a melting ice cap. The old adage "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" comes to mind here.

Maybe there's something to it. I'll wait...
That is a hypothesis, not a conclusion.

And it’s not that the volcano “appeared”, it’s that it began erupting. That hypothesis is based upon observations of other undersea volcanos, and how they behave.

You keep thinking you have these”gotcha” observations, but you’re really just exposing your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Not understanding something isn’t an argument against it.
I'm not going to argue semantics with you. Perhaps I should have thought about all the different ways you may choose to hear me and worded it differently.

And I know you like to spout off about people's "ignorance" as you view it if they don't swallow your opinion but if you'll note, I said "maybe there's something to it."

I guess if you're constantly looking for something to call as a gotcha, you can find it in probably anything. Either way, you missed my point in that they defaulted to melting ice caps because of man-caused climate change, assuming that's what they're calling it this year.

And it really makes no damn difference to me as Trump was smart enough to pull out of the Paris bleed-America-dry Accord anyways.

j-c-c
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2675
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:15 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:10 pm
I'm not going to argue semantics with you.
Or more to the point, "i surrender, I surrender" =D>

engineczar
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1326
Joined: Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Dubois, Wy.

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by engineczar » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:43 pm

GRTfast wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:45 pm
engineczar wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:35 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:30 pm


If you say so, what then is your counter?

I did use the term "pretty certain", correct?
My counter is that yes the climate is changing as it always had and always will. Openly polluting is bad. Cheap available power is good for the economy yet should be done as cleanly as the current technology allows. I still feel that the time span is too short and the numbers too small in the overall age of the planet to consider that the root cause (man) has been discovered. It's the whole causation/correlation thing.
It’s fine to reject the evidence and conclusions showing definitively that humans are the major cause for the current change we observe. In order to be taken seriously though, you’ve got to present a better explanation, and you’ve go to do so as convincingly as the current science has.
That's all well and fine but I'm old enough to remember all the previous settled sciences and predictions about climate by the "experts" so it's hard for me to leap feet first into the earth is melting pool. Plus there are plenty of other scientists with contrary viewpoints who also make convincing observations. Time will tell but for me it's just a longer amount of time.

RevTheory
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4373
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:45 am

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by RevTheory » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:00 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:15 pm
Or more to the point, "i surrender, I surrender" =D>
And you call yourself intellectual? Yep, you have zero credibility here and are now firmly in the "useless troll" bin. You should take a few minutes to read and hopefully understand what was written before you jump in and make yourself look even more foolish.

j-c-c
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2675
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:03 pm

Re: Volcanic activity discovered under Antarctica ice.....oops!

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:22 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:00 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:15 pm
Or more to the point, "i surrender, I surrender" =D>
And you call yourself intellectual? Yep, you have zero credibility here and are now firmly in the "useless troll" bin. You should take a few minutes to read and hopefully understand what was written before you jump in and make yourself look even more foolish.
Ok then, my life experience over decades, when somebody says "I don't want to argue semantics", they been treed.
Deal with it
Same explanation applies when they call another a "troll".
Deal with it.
I don't call myself anything, others try though.
Deal with it.
I sure get a lot of insults for "zero credibility", doesn't reflect on me near as much as the insulter.
I can deal with it. =D>

Post Reply