Summit in Singapore

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Ratu
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Summit in Singapore

Post by Ratu » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:10 am

Best hopes and wishes that the President of the United States of America can deliver a peace treaty with North Korea and bring his troops back home. This is not going to be an easy task for him to achieve, especially when the bulk of his cabinet appear to want more war.

A comment recently posted by "Free Speech" on the Eric Peters Auto site reads as follows.

"You know the US has become insane today when:

The answer to endless wars is more wars.

The answer to the police state is more tyranny.

The answer to a dead economy is starting a trade war.

The answer to regulations is more laws.

The answer to endless debt is more debt."

One hopes that the Libya model is not what the President intends to try. If he does, he will fail utterly.

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong commented that the summit is of extraordinary importance to all of Asia and that is why Singapore is paying to host it- a considerable expense for them. It has not gone un-noticed in Asia that the President of the USA is surrounded by war mongers. It is also well understood throughout Asia that North and South Korea are driving the process towards peace and that the US is being pulled along. How fast peace is allowed to break out on the peninsula is up to the President of the USA. Nevertheless peace is a coming, fast or slow. Eventually US troops are going to have to go home. The actions of the President will determine two things. How long that will be and whether they go home in hatred and disgrace or with honour and respect.

One hopes for the best possible outcome. No-one can afford less.

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by j-c-c » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:36 am

Ratu wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:10 am
Best hopes and wishes that the President of the United States of America can deliver a peace treaty with North Korea and bring his troops back home. This is not going to be an easy task for him to achieve, especially when the bulk of his cabinet appear to want more war.

A comment recently posted by "Free Speech" on the Eric Peters Auto site reads as follows.

"You know the US has become insane today when:

The answer to endless wars is more wars.

The answer to the police state is more tyranny.

The answer to a dead economy is starting a trade war.

The answer to regulations is more laws.

The answer to endless debt is more debt."

One hopes that the Libya model is not what the President intends to try. If he does, he will fail utterly.

Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong commented that the summit is of extraordinary importance to all of Asia and that is why Singapore is paying to host it- a considerable expense for them. It has not gone un-noticed in Asia that the President of the USA is surrounded by war mongers. It is also well understood throughout Asia that North and South Korea are driving the process towards peace and that the US is being pulled along. How fast peace is allowed to break out on the peninsula is up to the President of the USA. Nevertheless peace is a coming, fast or slow. Eventually US troops are going to have to go home. The actions of the President will determine two things. How long that will be and whether they go home in hatred and disgrace or with honour and respect.

One hopes for the best possible outcome. No-one can afford less.
Regardless of your lofty aspirations, according to DT, we should know the answer within the first minute, I take as a fortuitous bellwether . #-o

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by Ratu » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:03 am

Nothing "lofty" about it. Peace is normal. War is a morally repugnant aberration.

Do not be misguided by standard North American verbal puffery, low minded though it is. Many of you fellas do it frequently enough anyway (you included). You ought to know better than to take your own bluster and B.S. as seriously as you do though. That's a cultural blind spot you have right there. The rest of the world sees it as loud, mouth breathing foolishness bereft of substance and reeking of ignorance and hubris. It is resented and privately scorned.

The way this summit is going to work out is determined not so much by what is said in the summit itself, but by what advisers, handlers, lobbyists and bureaucrats are forced to yield to the President and his in-house support. Wait and see how strong the President actually is. If he fails to achieve breakthrough, then he is weak. The insiders have him beat. If he gets his breakthrough (really that recognition belongs to Kim and Moon, but let's not be uncharitable), then he still has strength and is a serious independent player.

====

*Good to see the G7 kicked straight in the guts though. They are a pack of crooked pantywaists and the President was correct and proper to knock them as he did, Canadian wally included.

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by j-c-c » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:11 am

Ratu wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:03 am
Nothing "lofty" about it. Peace is normal. War is a morally repugnant aberration.

Do not be misguided by standard North American verbal puffery, low minded though it is. Many of you fellas do it frequently enough anyway (you included). You ought to know better than to take your own bluster and B.S. as seriously as you do though. That's a cultural blind spot you have right there. The rest of the world sees it as loud, mouth breathing foolishness bereft of substance and reeking of ignorance and hubris. It is resented and privately scorned.
Try not to hold back next time, we want to hear how you really feel, with bated breath, or not :lol:

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by RevTheory » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:15 am

So let me see if I've got this right; if the summit with a dictator whose family imprisoned, starved, tortured and murdered its own people for 70 years and has a history of lies and deception doesn't "breakthrough", Donald Trump is weak but if it does "breakthrough" the credit goes to Kim and Moon.

Gotcha!

Let me ask you, Ratu, what country do you live in? You seem to speak for the whole world about just how hated America it. That is until you need help.

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by j-c-c » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:11 pm

RevTheory wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:15 am
So let me see if I've got this right; if the summit with a dictator whose family imprisoned, starved, tortured and murdered its own people for 70 years and has a history of lies and deception doesn't "breakthrough", Donald Trump is weak but if it does "breakthrough" the credit goes to Kim and Moon.

Gotcha!

Let me ask you, Ratu, what country do you live in? You seem to speak for the whole world about just how hated America it. That is until you need help.
You/DT are trying to claim success on a situation that will play out for many decades, maybe by giving away the store for personal fame.. Typical "look at me how great I am", and BTW, you clean up the mess when I'm long gone.

This is a pertinent reference point that could be applicable, as to unintended consequences and short sightedness:


https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... versailles

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by 1989TransAm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:49 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:11 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:15 am
So let me see if I've got this right; if the summit with a dictator whose family imprisoned, starved, tortured and murdered its own people for 70 years and has a history of lies and deception doesn't "breakthrough", Donald Trump is weak but if it does "breakthrough" the credit goes to Kim and Moon.

Gotcha!

Let me ask you, Ratu, what country do you live in? You seem to speak for the whole world about just how hated America it. That is until you need help.
You/DT are trying to claim success on a situation that will play out for many decades, maybe by giving away the store for personal fame.. Typical "look at me how great I am", and BTW, you clean up the mess when I'm long gone.

This is a pertinent reference point that could be applicable, as to unintended consequences and short sightedness:


https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... versailles
You are thinking of Clinton/Albright in NK and Obama/Kerry in Iran. President Trump will walk away if the deal is not right. He will most likely go to Congress for approval unlike Obama.

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by Speedbump » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:59 pm

Even though I disagree with most of you here, I'm not sure anyone should take a lesson in "puffery" and "hubris" from a guy who's handle in Malay language means chief or royalty.
Speedbump
"If it was easy, everybody would do it."

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by j-c-c » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:12 pm

1989TransAm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:49 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:11 pm
RevTheory wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:15 am
So let me see if I've got this right; if the summit with a dictator whose family imprisoned, starved, tortured and murdered its own people for 70 years and has a history of lies and deception doesn't "breakthrough", Donald Trump is weak but if it does "breakthrough" the credit goes to Kim and Moon.

Gotcha!

Let me ask you, Ratu, what country do you live in? You seem to speak for the whole world about just how hated America it. That is until you need help.
You/DT are trying to claim success on a situation that will play out for many decades, maybe by giving away the store for personal fame.. Typical "look at me how great I am", and BTW, you clean up the mess when I'm long gone.

This is a pertinent reference point that could be applicable, as to unintended consequences and short sightedness:


https://www.history.com/topics/world-wa ... versailles
You are thinking of Clinton/Albright in NK and Obama/Kerry in Iran. President Trump will walk away if the deal is not right. He will most likely go to Congress for approval unlike Obama.
And the upside of walking away is no deal?
My lawyer always said, a deal nobody likes has the chance of being fair.
Remember also. both sides can walk away, DT is not alone in that option.
So Congress was ready to approve the OB Iran deal, did I miss something, and the current congress is ready to approve a deal yet made, unsigned and unseen in advance? :shock:
Interesting.

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by Ratu » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:41 pm

RevTheory

No. You got nothin'.

The rapprochement between North and South Korea is being driven by Kim and Moon. They get credit for it. The USA govt is being dragged along.

In essence what has occurred is that the North Korean govt learned about US foreign policy from the examples of Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine etc. etc. The leadership of North Korea are not fools and they definitely would prefer to live, not be put to death in like manner to Hussein or Qaddafi. Notice that both Hussein and Qaddafi trusted the promises they were given by the US govt in relation to their nuclear weapons programmes, yet despite dismantling their fledgling nuke programmes they were attacked, their countries destroyed and they were killed (along with tens of thousands of civilians). The North Korean govt wallahs have learned the obvious lesson from this, especially when Bolton said the present regime in the White House was following the Libyan model (that is, offer blandishments to the North Koreans, get them to disarm and then attack them mercilessly). They concluded that they ought not trust the USA govt.

Instead of rolling over and preparing for death, they bought the matter to a head by developing a nuclear weapon and a delivery means for it. Now they are a nuclear power with a nuclear deterrence. Why would they do this? They realised that even though they already had the ability to destroy Seoul by artillery fire, this was not sufficient to necessarily prevent the US military from attacking. It was not a sufficient deterrence. The lesson they took from watching what happened in various US foreign adventures around the world (and studying history some) is that so long as it is not US citizens getting killed in vast numbers war is a viable option for the US govt when it does not get its way. They see US diplomacy as no more than demands and threats followed by escalations and provocations right up to all out war when the US govt does not get its way. Too bad if you are furrin ethnics, your lives do not count. Hence the North Koreans attained nuclear weapons as a matter of national priority. Now they have the ability to strike directly at US assets and allies throughout the region, up to and including the US mainland. At this point there is no military solution available to the US govt, not unless a worldwide recession (depression even) and war with the deaths of tens of millions is considered acceptable (and remember, this would be a war that would come ashore in the US, it is not possible to restrict it to Korea alone).

What does the US govt do? More threats. Escalations. Provocations every year without fail. But there is the issue of the people of South Korea. The people of South Korea are well aware of what would happen to them if a war with the North did break out. Why ought they to have their lives ruined for US objectives and US interests? Why ought they to die for a foreign government, resident an entire ocean away? So, they voted into power a government which is headed up by a man who seeks peace with the North. After all, the North Koreans are Koreans just like them. They share language, history, culture, music, food etc etc etc. In short, they share more in common with their fellow Koreans than they do with 'Murrikuns or even, horrors, with Japanese or Chinese. So why die on behalf of foreigners and foreign interests alien to the peninsula? Why indeed.

So Moon and Kim begin a dialogue and it begins to move rapidly towards peace and rapprochement. They get the credit for this because it is they who did it. There was no US politician or official getting this process started and driving it forward. It has nothing to do with the US govt. Indeed the US govt reacts as it has since it is fast losing control of what was really a colonial satrap occupied at great expense as a means of threatening and containing China and Russia. But South Korea is starting to demonstrate an independence. Sovereignty is breaking out! Can't have that. Must retain relevance and power everywhere. Trouble is the US moment is over. President Putin is right. For good or bad the world is a multi-polar affair and it is only going to become more so in the future. All over the world allies and neutrals are starting to recognise that US interests are not necessarily the same as or even necessarily aligned with their own. As was recently said, "The periphery is starting to break free from the centre". This is more than evident on the Korean Peninsula.

What is the situation for President Trump? He can allow the process of peace between the North and South Korea to continue. He is able to affect the rate at which it happens in that he can delay it some or he can speed it up by promoting it. On the other hand he can fight it, try to wreck it altogether or even go to hostilities, violence and war. In the end, assuming war is avoided, the result is an inevitable peace treaty between North and South. Demilitarisation of the Peninsula. Security guarantees obtained for the North and for the South. Sanctions end. Trade breaks out between North and South on a huge scale, as they integrate economically. US military departs the peninsula. Korean policy becomes an independent expression of Korean interests. Massive fortunes are made by early investors in the North (see Jim Rogers comments in this regard). The remaining question then is whether the Koreas join the China silk road (OBOR, SCO etc) and adopt specie backed currency for trade or they use the US dollar as reserve instead. The third option is open hostilities and all the suffering that can deliver.

President Trump's situation is a fascinating one. He is a President under siege. He has limited range of manoeuvre. In his own White House he is surrounded by war mongers, neocons, career bureaucrats and the like. Assuming that what he said as candidate during the Presidential election is what he actually believes, then he would appear to favour peace on the peninsula and getting the US military out of there. That is, getting disentangled and bringing the troops back home. If he is able to prevail over the stern opposition he faces domestically/internally, then, as previously indicated, he is independent and his position is strong. He gets his breakthrough. If not, then his position is weak. That would be a great shame.

--
Quoting, "... until you need help."

Mate, that's your problem expressed right there. You like to interfere in the affairs of others. We do not need your political or economic "help". Way too much ignorant hubris to have to put up with really. Trade by all means, but learn to leave other people alone. Keep your "help" to yourself. Lead by moral example. That is best policy.

Had you not noticed that the US is all but broke? And that it is the poor citizens of the place who are going to be on the hook for it all. So why do you need to interfere in other countries all over the world? It is rendering you impecunious. "Clean up your own room first."

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by David Redszus » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:00 pm

Nothing "lofty" about it. Peace is normal. War is a morally repugnant aberration.
Boy, have you got that wrong.

War is the normal world condition and has been so for thousands of years, not peace.
Peace is an aberration; a welcome one but merely an aberration nonetheless.

As for the childish moralizing, many people around the world believe what is published
or broadcast by our fake news media. Principally CNN.

This president is doing what the American people want and deserve. He is the first
president since Eisenhower to think and act like a real leader instead of a mealy mouthed
politician as found around the world. And the loony lefty socialists are going crazy.

Wonderful!!!

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by GRTfast » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:03 pm

Ratu wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:41 pm
RevTheory

No. You got nothin'.

The rapprochement between North and South Korea is being driven by Kim and Moon. They get credit for it. The USA govt is being dragged along.

In essence what has occurred is that the North Korean govt learned about US foreign policy from the examples of Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Ukraine etc. etc. The leadership of North Korea are not fools and they definitely would prefer to live, not be put to death in like manner to Hussein or Qaddafi. Notice that both Hussein and Qaddafi trusted the promises they were given by the US govt in relation to their nuclear weapons programmes, yet despite dismantling their fledgling nuke programmes they were attacked, their countries destroyed and they were killed (along with tens of thousands of civilians). The North Korean govt wallahs have learned the obvious lesson from this, especially when Bolton said the present regime in the White House was following the Libyan model (that is, offer blandishments to the North Koreans, get them to disarm and then attack them mercilessly). They concluded that they ought not trust the USA govt.

Instead of rolling over and preparing for death, they bought the matter to a head by developing a nuclear weapon and a delivery means for it. Now they are a nuclear power with a nuclear deterrence. Why would they do this? They realised that even though they already had the ability to destroy Seoul by artillery fire, this was not sufficient to necessarily prevent the US military from attacking. It was not a sufficient deterrence. The lesson they took from watching what happened in various US foreign adventures around the world (and studying history some) is that so long as it is not US citizens getting killed in vast numbers war is a viable option for the US govt when it does not get its way. They see US diplomacy as no more than demands and threats followed by escalations and provocations right up to all out war when the US govt does not get its way. Too bad if you are furrin ethnics, your lives do not count. Hence the North Koreans attained nuclear weapons as a matter of national priority. Now they have the ability to strike directly at US assets and allies throughout the region, up to and including the US mainland. At this point there is no military solution available to the US govt, not unless a worldwide recession (depression even) and war with the deaths of tens of millions is considered acceptable (and remember, this would be a war that would come ashore in the US, it is not possible to restrict it to Korea alone).

What does the US govt do? More threats. Escalations. Provocations every year without fail. But there is the issue of the people of South Korea. The people of South Korea are well aware of what would happen to them if a war with the North did break out. Why ought they to have their lives ruined for US objectives and US interests? Why ought they to die for a foreign government, resident an entire ocean away? So, they voted into power a government which is headed up by a man who seeks peace with the North. After all, the North Koreans are Koreans just like them. They share language, history, culture, music, food etc etc etc. In short, they share more in common with their fellow Koreans than they do with 'Murrikuns or even, horrors, with Japanese or Chinese. So why die on behalf of foreigners and foreign interests alien to the peninsula? Why indeed.

So Moon and Kim begin a dialogue and it begins to move rapidly towards peace and rapprochement. They get the credit for this because it is they who did it. There was no US politician or official getting this process started and driving it forward. It has nothing to do with the US govt. Indeed the US govt reacts as it has since it is fast losing control of what was really a colonial satrap occupied at great expense as a means of threatening and containing China and Russia. But South Korea is starting to demonstrate an independence. Sovereignty is breaking out! Can't have that. Must retain relevance and power everywhere. Trouble is the US moment is over. President Putin is right. For good or bad the world is a multi-polar affair and it is only going to become more so in the future. All over the world allies and neutrals are starting to recognise that US interests are not necessarily the same as or even necessarily aligned with their own. As was recently said, "The periphery is starting to break free from the centre". This is more than evident on the Korean Peninsula.

What is the situation for President Trump? He can allow the process of peace between the North and South Korea to continue. He is able to affect the rate at which it happens in that he can delay it some or he can speed it up by promoting it. On the other hand he can fight it, try to wreck it altogether or even go to hostilities, violence and war. In the end, assuming war is avoided, the result is an inevitable peace treaty between North and South. Demilitarisation of the Peninsula. Security guarantees obtained for the North and for the South. Sanctions end. Trade breaks out between North and South on a huge scale, as they integrate economically. US military departs the peninsula. Korean policy becomes an independent expression of Korean interests. Massive fortunes are made by early investors in the North (see Jim Rogers comments in this regard). The remaining question then is whether the Koreas join the China silk road (OBOR, SCO etc) and adopt specie backed currency for trade or they use the US dollar as reserve instead. The third option is open hostilities and all the suffering that can deliver.

President Trump's situation is a fascinating one. He is a President under siege. He has limited range of manoeuvre. In his own White House he is surrounded by war mongers, neocons, career bureaucrats and the like. Assuming that what he said as candidate during the Presidential election is what he actually believes, then he would appear to favour peace on the peninsula and getting the US military out of there. That is, getting disentangled and bringing the troops back home. If he is able to prevail over the stern opposition he faces domestically/internally, then, as previously indicated, he is independent and his position is strong. He gets his breakthrough. If not, then his position is weak. That would be a great shame.

--
Quoting, "... until you need help."

Mate, that's your problem expressed right there. You like to interfere in the affairs of others. We do not need your political or economic "help". Way too much ignorant hubris to have to put up with really. Trade by all means, but learn to leave other people alone. Keep your "help" to yourself. Lead by moral example. That is best policy.

Had you not noticed that the US is all but broke? And that it is the poor citizens of the place who are going to be on the hook for it all. So why do you need to interfere in other countries all over the world? It is rendering you impecunious. "Clean up your own room first."
Kudos for the most intelligently written and thought out post I’ve read here so far. Very insightful.

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by John Wallace » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:56 pm

X2!

Thank you Ratu!

:)
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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by sanfordandson » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:11 pm

X3 RATU!

I see now we have Trump and Dennis Rodman in town to seal the deal.

I predict world peace by Friday.... :lol:

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Re: Summit in Singapore

Post by 1989TransAm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:41 pm

Pure nonsense. If it was so easy with Kim and Moon leading the way why did not Obama do this deal? So, do you guys think that Kim should get the Nobel Peace Prize?

Edit: As to Moon he says otherwise about President Trump. He states none of this would have happened without Trump's leadership and praised him.
Last edited by 1989TransAm on Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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