Presidential Self Pardon

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engineczar
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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by engineczar » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:42 am

It's all chicken and egg anyways. The only thing he can't pardon is Impeachment. Impeachment is high crimes and misdemeanors while in office. If there are no high crimes and Misdemeanors in office there can be no impeachment.

The same question was asked about Hillary just before the election and was pretty well laid out here:

https://lawandcrime.com/opinion/if-hill ... -helpless/

mk e
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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by mk e » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:14 am

Normally you can't use a legal power for a corrupt purpose. Pardoning yourself would be a corrupt purpose. A judge can technically hear charges against himself, or a prosecutor prosecute himself....but regulations have been added to disallow things like that....but the constitution does not speak of it, just like it doesn't speak of self pardons.

So a president could pardon himself, but its not clear the courts would honor it. Otherwise the president facing certain impeachment/removal from office could pardon himself so he doesn't risk criminal charges after he's out of office.

I think if all this moves forward the courts will decide impeachment and criminal charges are separate issues...its the only practical solution.

The fact that we need to have this discussion at all is troubling though.
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David Redszus
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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by David Redszus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:34 am

The ability of a POTUS to pardon is limited to Federal crimes; it does not include non-federal crimes.

A POTUS could not get you out of a parking ticket, except in Washington DC.

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:25 pm

The use of the word "conviction" in the context of impeachment might be legally correct, but as I mentioned earlier, the main "penalty" for that "conviction" is, removal from office. little else. And if POTUS has already self pardoned himself, he goes scott free. If that concept is so grade school, not many people went past the 6th grade apparently, So say if DT Shoots Comey in DC, then self pardons, he is free as a bird, albeit, maybe impeached, since no state has jurisdiction/standing.

Just as this POTUS has interpreted a self pardon option, I suspect that Congress can also determine for itself, what "high crimes" are to allow impeachment legally in their eyes.

If I was drafting a "no Self pardon amendment" , I would include a provision no person who assumes a former impeached position, can offer a pardon to that former impeached officeholder/person, until the new officeholder has been duly elected, after the impeachment, to keep the voters in the loop.

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by 1989TransAm » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:36 pm

mk e wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:14 am
Normally you can't use a legal power for a corrupt purpose. Pardoning yourself would be a corrupt purpose. A judge can technically hear charges against himself, or a prosecutor prosecute himself....but regulations have been added to disallow things like that....but the constitution does not speak of it, just like it doesn't speak of self pardons.

So a president could pardon himself, but its not clear the courts would honor it. Otherwise the president facing certain impeachment/removal from office could pardon himself so he doesn't risk criminal charges after he's out of office.

I think if all this moves forward the courts will decide impeachment and criminal charges are separate issues...its the only practical solution.

The fact that we need to have this discussion at all is troubling though.
This conversation came up right before the 2016 election and Hillary Clinton. Some people were wondering if she would pardon herself for the crimes she may have committed. This is not a new discussion. The difference is that there is no evidence that President Trump has committed any crime. There is evidence that Hillary has committed crimes. The FBI is looking into the Clinton Crime foundation. The IG report is about emailgate.

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by j-c-c » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:59 pm

Doesn't matter who is in office, NOBODY should be allowed to self pardon
An amendment closes that door. Period.
Care to reference your replies from years back where you suggested a legal rule of law solution?

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by mk e » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:16 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:59 pm
Doesn't matter who is in office, NOBODY should be allowed to self pardon
An amendment closes that door. Period.
Care to reference your replies from years back where you suggested a legal rule of law solution?
I don't think an amendment is needed.....the courts would kill a self pardon as a abuse of power, aka corruption.
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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by exhaustgases » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:19 pm

I deleted it.

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by David Redszus » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:42 pm

So say if DT Shoots Comey in DC, then self pardons, he is free as a bird, albeit, maybe impeached, since no state has jurisdiction/standing.
If a gang banger shoots another banger in DC, he could not be pardoned by POTUS since it is not a Federal crime.

If DT shoots Comey, Mueller, Rosenstein, or other swamp critters in DC, it would be a Federal crime and he could self pardon
(justifiable homicide of course), and /or his successor could pardon him as well.

Federal law makes certain homicides a Federal crime.

1. Murder of an Elected/Appointed Federal Official
2. Murder of a Federal Judge or Law Enforcement Official
3. Killing of an Immediate Family Member of Law Enforcement Officials
4. A Killing Designed to Influence the Outcome of a Court Case
5. A Killing Committed During Bank Robbery
6. Murder Related to Rape, Child Molestation
7. Murder Aboard a Ship
8. Drug-Related Murders
9. Murder for Hire
10. Murder by Mail

Considering the snail's pace of cleaning up the corrupt swamp critters, perhaps a mob
hit contract and subsequent pardon might be very effective. And very welcome.

Been done that way here in Chicago for a hundred years. It works.

A no-self pardon amendment? Are you kidding?
That could never happen. Besides, some lawmakers might need to make use of a self pardon.

The Equal Rights Amendment still has not been ratified by the required number of states.
Good luck with an even sillier amendment. :lol:

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by GRTfast » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:24 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:42 pm
So say if DT Shoots Comey in DC, then self pardons, he is free as a bird, albeit, maybe impeached, since no state has jurisdiction/standing.
If a gang banger shoots another banger in DC, he could not be pardoned by POTUS since it is not a Federal crime.

If DT shoots Comey, Mueller, Rosenstein, or other swamp critters in DC, it would be a Federal crime and he could self pardon
(justifiable homicide of course), and /or his successor could pardon him as well.

Federal law makes certain homicides a Federal crime.

1. Murder of an Elected/Appointed Federal Official
2. Murder of a Federal Judge or Law Enforcement Official
3. Killing of an Immediate Family Member of Law Enforcement Officials
4. A Killing Designed to Influence the Outcome of a Court Case
5. A Killing Committed During Bank Robbery
6. Murder Related to Rape, Child Molestation
7. Murder Aboard a Ship
8. Drug-Related Murders
9. Murder for Hire
10. Murder by Mail

Considering the snail's pace of cleaning up the corrupt swamp critters, perhaps a mob
hit contract and subsequent pardon might be very effective. And very welcome.

Been done that way here in Chicago for a hundred years. It works.

A no-self pardon amendment? Are you kidding?
That could never happen. Besides, some lawmakers might need to make use of a self pardon.

The Equal Rights Amendment still has not been ratified by the required number of states.
Good luck with an even sillier amendment. :lol:
I hope you’re joking. Advocating for the killing of your political foes sounds very much like a non American thing to do, nevermind the moral implications. If you’re not joking, holy moly. Wow.

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by exhaustgases » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:56 pm

If Trump is smart and has all his egg's in the basket so to say, things could get real fun for the Marxists in high places. I know how he could win hugely I mean very hugely. Its like if he does the right chess move at the right time, just wow !

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by David Redszus » Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:17 am

The very last words of Julius Caesar: " If you’re not joking, holy moly. Wow."

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by GRTfast » Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:14 am

:shock:

j-c-c
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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by j-c-c » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:51 am

mk e wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:16 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:59 pm
Doesn't matter who is in office, NOBODY should be allowed to self pardon
An amendment closes that door. Period.
Care to reference your replies from years back where you suggested a legal rule of law solution?
I don't think an amendment is needed.....the courts would kill a self pardon as a abuse of power, aka corruption.
I agree, nobody in centuries had the balls enough to even suggest it, times change though.
The problem is, why allow/invite a constitutional crises, that can be avoided, plus it provides some deterrence against an out of control POTUS, rather then trying to close the barn door after the deed.

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Re: Presidential Self Pardon

Post by RevTheory » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:56 am

Look how you lefties allow a hypothetical (and intentional at that!) question from a partisan hack throw you into TDS overdrive again :lol:

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