Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

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mk e
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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by mk e » Wed May 16, 2018 8:44 am

Ratu wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:24 am

That is exactly what their strategy is setting out to do. Even if no records are revealed, they have still won big by raising the matter and putting it into the public domain, front and centre.

This is a very big deal.
It's good for attempting to build an alliance between the Kremlin and Rump supporters which appears to be the focus of their entire effort, it's basically what they are on trial for doing.

....it has no merit as a legal defense. "They did it first" is just not a defense, it's an admition of guilt.
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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by 1989TransAm » Wed May 16, 2018 1:23 pm

Nonsense ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by mk e » Wed May 16, 2018 1:34 pm

I know you guys seems to love the "they did it too/first/more" defense....but it's not a defense, it's an admition.

You also seem to be loosing sight of the fact that Rump and friends used Mueller's indictment list as their sanctions list, so they accepted and agreed with the conclusions of the investigation.

You're watching political theater written specifically for Rump's core supporters and intended to align you views with Russia's.....and you're buying it.
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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by Ratu » Wed May 16, 2018 3:50 pm

mk e

You are missing the point entirely. For a start, the Russian company has not admitted guilt of the allegations made against it. If they had pled guilty there would be no need to try the case & the Court would move on to sentencing.

Secondly, what the Russian company are presently doing is exercising discovery, as they are entitled to do and as is their legal right to do.

Finally, the company is engaged in two tasks here. The first is trivial. It is to mount a robust defense in Court. They would like to win the case, obviously enough, even though there is not much sanction that can be taken against them should they lose. The second is much more important. It is, in effect, to put the activities of the US govt on trial in the court of international opinion. They have reversed roles. Here it is the US govt that is the defendant. This affair is likely to be extremely consequential...

Get it now?

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by j-c-c » Wed May 16, 2018 5:06 pm

Ratu wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 3:50 pm
mk e

You are missing the point entirely. For a start, the Russian company has not admitted guilt of the allegations made against it. If they had pled guilty there would be no need to try the case & the Court would move on to sentencing.

Secondly, what the Russian company are presently doing is exercising discovery, as they are entitled to do and as is their legal right to do.

Finally, the company is engaged in two tasks here. The first is trivial. It is to mount a robust defense in Court. They would like to win the case, obviously enough, even though there is not much sanction that can be taken against them should they lose. The second is much more important. It is, in effect, to put the activities of the US govt on trial in the court of international opinion. They have reversed roles. Here it is the US govt that is the defendant. This affair is likely to be extremely consequential...

Get it now?
There is merit to your argument, but if the US refuses to be forthcoming with documents, as to in the US gov's eyes, the harm would be greater then the gain of winning, this whole trial gets dumped. Would not be the first time. I don't see the US helping to prove in court any black op underhanded activities.

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by j-c-c » Wed May 16, 2018 5:10 pm

Ratu wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 2:12 am
This particular hypocrisy is a glaring example of immorality. It isn't acceptable and won't be accepted.
We have a leader currently that has no concept of anything value related other then winning at any cost IMO.
Hard to square your immorality position with our current leadership and note I am not disagreeing with it.

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by 1989TransAm » Wed May 16, 2018 6:17 pm

Once again you are spouting pure unadulterated bullsh!t. [-X ^^^^^^^^^^^^

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by Ratu » Thu May 17, 2018 2:29 am

J-c-c

Quoting, "...if the US refuses to be forthcoming with documents, as to in the US gov's eyes, the harm would be greater then the gain of winning, this whole trial gets dumped. Would not be the first time. I don't see the US helping to prove in court any black op underhanded activities."

Yes, this is a likely outcome. There are consequences though. It is not going to be a free pass. While it dodges the necessity of the US govt directly admitting to its own behaviours and hypocrisy, it will be understood to be dishonest evasion by large portions of the domestic public as well as overwhelmingly so by the international public. That the entire topic of what the US govt has been doing in other countries is now out in the open, being actively discussed (and about to get even more attention yet) is exactly what the strategy seeks. This is a lose/lose scenario for the prosecution and its support base.

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by Ratu » Thu May 17, 2018 2:34 am

J-c-c

Quoting, "Hard to square your immorality position with our current leadership and note I am not disagreeing with it."

I do not think that the President has been a good example of how to live a moral life. Then again, very few of them have been in recent times. Still, that does not excuse the extraordinarily immoral behaviours of those who have been acting so viciously and dishonestly against him and his office.

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by mk e » Thu May 17, 2018 8:39 am

j-c-c wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:06 pm

There is merit to your argument, but if the US refuses to be forthcoming with documents, as to in the US gov's eyes, the harm would be greater then the gain of winning, this whole trial gets dumped. Would not be the first time. I don't see the US helping to prove in court any black op underhanded activities.
There is zero merit.....distration is not a denfense and the judge is very unlikely to allow any of this nonsense in court. The prosecution will present it's case and the defense and the defense will in effect be saying " no contest" if they continue on this path.

It is a political show designed to put the Russian progodana in US media. The target is Rump supporters to some extent, but probably more for Russians at home. They need to drive the message that the US profoundly anti-Russia. Putin needs a boogie man....this nonsense is to build that narrative.
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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by Ratu » Thu May 17, 2018 2:39 pm

mk e

You protest too much. Your evasion of the point is obvious and disingenuous.

Again and for the record, this is the discovery phase of the process. DISCOVERY. Look it up mate.

The defense has not yet been presented. In other words they have not yet acted substantively. What they HAVE done is taken the preliminary step, as is their right, of requesting discovery. YOU do not know what the defense is going to do and YOU won't know until the defense acts during the trial.

On the basis of previous experience what we can reasonably conclude is that it is highly possible and indeed quite likely that the defense will include response to what the discovery phase reveals. That would be sensible, perhaps obvious even. Nevertheless, at this point you don't know and whatever the communications and instructions between defense counsel and the defendant may happen be, they remain legally privileged, hence unavailable to you.

Now the substantive point to grasp at this stage is that what is going on in this trial has two levels of significance. There is the obvious. That is, the Russian company seeks to defend itself against the allegations made against it. This despite the fact that there is little or no sanction the US Court or US enforcement agencies can take against it should it be convicted. Then there is the more substantive. This is about revealing what the US govt has been doing itself. In effect the US govt, or elements of it, are being put on trial in the court of international opinion. THIS is the far more consequential. You ought to think carefully on this aspect.

---

You write, "They need to drive the message that the US profoundly anti-Russia."

"They" do not need to "drive" that message. It is clear to Russians that the US govt actually is profoundly anti-Russia. They receive this message from the actions of the US govt every day and have been receiving it for some years now.

There are US missile bases right along on Russia's land borders. There are NATO military forces, including German, closer to Moscow now then when the Nazis launched the Barbarossa campaign in WW2. There have been a continuing and escalating series of provocations against Russian territory, Russian interests and ethnic Russian people by a US led coalition of "allies" (satraps really). There has been a constant push to wreck Russian trade, industry and international relations led by....... the US govt. There has been a constant effort to undermine Russia's energy exports to Europe and even to China. There have been broken disarmament treaties (including in missiles, poison gas weapons, nuclear weapons). There has been a record of broken promises, hostile undertakings, wrecked diplomacy, dishonesty, duplicity, hypocrisy and threats directed against the Russians. All of this initiated and delivered against the Russian.

The real activities have already made an indelible mark. It is the actions of the US which have spoken and they have spoken loud and hard. Making the obvious conclusion is trivial.


Quoting, "Putin needs a boogie man."

It appears matters are exactly the other way around. It is the US govt that needs bogey men. Look to their deeds.

Final point. You really need to travel and spend a few years outside of the US. Your ignorance of the rest of the world, what its people are experiencing and concluding in no way achieves bliss.....

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by j-c-c » Thu May 17, 2018 2:48 pm

1989TransAm wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:17 pm
Once again you are spouting pure unadulterated bullsh!t. [-X ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your command of the English Language is stunning. #-o

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by 1989TransAm » Thu May 17, 2018 5:09 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:48 pm
1989TransAm wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:17 pm
Once again you are spouting pure unadulterated bullsh!t. [-X ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your command of the English Language is stunning. #-o
Thank you for the compliment. :D

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by j-c-c » Thu May 17, 2018 9:19 pm

1989TransAm wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:09 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:48 pm
1989TransAm wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 6:17 pm
Once again you are spouting pure unadulterated bullsh!t. [-X ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Your command of the English Language is stunning. #-o
Thank you for the compliment. :D
Da Nada

You can call it anything you like.

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Re: Russian Company Asks Judge To Dismiss Mueller’s ‘Make-Believe’ Charges

Post by exhaustgases » Thu May 17, 2018 10:47 pm

j-c-c wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 9:19 pm
1989TransAm wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 5:09 pm
j-c-c wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Your command of the English Language is stunning. #-o
Thank you for the compliment. :D
Da Nada

You can call it anything you like.
Yeah put down TransAm, and ignore the one that set you on a straight path Ratu, typical Marxist you are.

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