China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

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Ratu
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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by Ratu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:03 am

lefty o

As a colleague explained to his daughter's potential suitor, "Just because you can get a girl pregnant, that does not mean you are suitable, let alone capable, of raising a son or a daughter." Analogously one could point out that just because you managed to visit a location, that does not mean you understand it, let alone possess relevant fact pertaining to it.

Now think very, very carefully about what I actually wrote and avoid thinking about your various pretenses and tremulous emotional state. Try to comprehend the point.

If US food products are limited, or even excluded, from the China market what else is that but an opportunity for the likes of Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, India, Iran, Vietnam, Australia, Thailand, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Philippines, Pakistan, Turkey, etc? It is, for them, a huuuuuge opportunity to gain market at the expense of the USA (which yet again scores a diplomatic own goal). Get that? It is an opportunity. It is certainly an opportunity which is not going to go unexploited for very long. OBOR is going to see to it that the obstacles and challenges to perceiving, understanding and exploiting such opportunities are significantly reduced.

Final point. It is clear you have no argument of substance, for if you did you've have stated it. Fact is, you didn't provide anything approaching an argument whatsoever, merely whining- a pathetic attempt to smear.

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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by Ratu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:14 am

Brian P

Yes. Those are the facts of the matter. It is a very serious state of affairs indeed. If things persist in the direction they are going, then many people in the USA are going to see their standard of living and life expectations lowered precipitously. There will be a LOT of suffering. It is not good. Free and open trade (not managed trade) offers a way to ameliorate the situation somewhat.

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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by lefty o » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:38 am

Ratu wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:03 am
lefty o

As a colleague explained to his daughter's potential suitor, "Just because you can get a girl pregnant, that does not mean you are suitable, let alone capable, of raising a son or a daughter." Analogously one could point out that just because you managed to visit a location, that does not mean you understand it, let alone possess relevant fact pertaining to it.

Now think very, very carefully about what I actually wrote and avoid thinking about your various pretenses and tremulous emotional state. Try to comprehend the point.

If US food products are limited, or even excluded, from the China market what else is that but an opportunity for the likes of Russia, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, India, Iran, Vietnam, Australia, Thailand, Afghanistan, Myanmar, Philippines, Pakistan, Turkey, etc? It is, for them, a huuuuuge opportunity to gain market at the expense of the USA (which yet again scores a diplomatic own goal). Get that? It is an opportunity. It is certainly an opportunity which is not going to go unexploited for very long. OBOR is going to see to it that the obstacles and challenges to perceiving, understanding and exploiting such opportunities are significantly reduced.

Final point. It is clear you have no argument of substance, for if you did you've have stated it. Fact is, you didn't provide anything approaching an argument whatsoever, merely whining- a pathetic attempt to smear.
you really dont understand how the world works do you!

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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by lefty o » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:40 am

Ratu wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:14 am
Brian P

Yes. Those are the facts of the matter. It is a very serious state of affairs indeed. If things persist in the direction they are going, then many people in the USA are going to see their standard of living and life expectations lowered precipitously. There will be a LOT of suffering. It is not good. Free and open trade (not managed trade) offers a way to ameliorate the situation somewhat.
there ya go, you said it yourself, FREE AND OPEN TRADE, something we have never had. its also something that will never happen unless someone stands up and undoes the damage of the previous administrations. yes there will be some bumps, but to continue being on the short end of every trade deal is idiotic!

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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by Brian P » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:11 pm

lefty o wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:40 am
Ratu wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:14 am
Brian P

Yes. Those are the facts of the matter. It is a very serious state of affairs indeed. If things persist in the direction they are going, then many people in the USA are going to see their standard of living and life expectations lowered precipitously. There will be a LOT of suffering. It is not good. Free and open trade (not managed trade) offers a way to ameliorate the situation somewhat.
there ya go, you said it yourself, FREE AND OPEN TRADE, something we have never had. its also something that will never happen unless someone stands up and undoes the damage of the previous administrations. yes there will be some bumps, but to continue being on the short end of every trade deal is idiotic!
Applying more tariffs is not the way to fix that.

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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by mk e » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:29 pm

Brian P wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:11 pm

Applying more tariffs is not the way to fix that.
No it's not. Rump is on about "fair" and most thought that meant "fair and open" but realize now "fair and closed" is also fair..... bad but fair.
Mark
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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by lefty o » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:38 pm

do you people really think they are just going to start playing fair , unless its first forced on them. they have had us right where they want us due to 8yrs of obammas good deals for them. yes a few bumps are going to be felt, but once you ruffle their feathers, you can sit down with them and renegotiate trade deals. giving china whatever it wants hasnt worked well for the US over the past 9yrs. you have to think further ahead than just tomorrow!

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Re: China hammers U.S. goods with tariffs as 'sparks' of trade war fly

Post by Ratu » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:20 pm

lefty o
You are attempting to posit the illogic that starting a trade war with China is how free and open trade with China can be encouraged to develop. That position is reminiscent of the criminal who brutally rapes & sodomises women while saying his actions encourage innocent virginity. Supporting the opposite of what you say you support is dishonest and hypocritical, especially when you pretend to be doing it for the sake of “fairness”. Pull your head in, lefty. Put it away!

If it is free and open trade that is the objective, then tariffs, taxes and imposts on imports as well as any and all barriers to trade need to be removed immediately and without hesitation. It does not matter whether other regimes reciprocate or not. That matters not a whit.

Any regime that fails to remove tariffs and barriers is engaged in the bilching of the productive labours and the wealth of the people who live under its misanthropic rule. It does not benefit people to be forced to pay more for the goods they desire to purchase. The portion of each purchase they are forced to pay to government is stolen money. It is in the main wasted on uselessness and is most often directed against the interests of the people. Further, it means that the purchasing power of those people is reduced. They get to buy less, save less, invest less, live poorer. Their standard of living and wealth declines and they get to be paying for the pleasure of enduring that. They are made into losers.

Meanwhile those living in a state of free trade get to possess goods at a lower price than otherwise would be the case. That increases their purchasing power which allows them to buy more, save more, invest more, live better. Their standard of living and wealth improves. They win. Of course, that is not how governments promote matters, for such a state of affairs means loss of power, privilege and revenue for bureaucrats, cronies, special interests, insiders, politicians etc. You can’t have that now, can you?

At this stage, what a lot of pantywaists like to do is to pretend that somehow cheaper prices are bad. They whine that failing to erect trade barriers and tariffs to make goods more expensive means jobs get exported and domestic industry enters a stage of collapse. Their simpering demonstrates a profound ignorance of economics as well as an absence of moral fibre. They are shills defending thieves.

Paying more to a government by way of tariffs does not improve trade. It allows the local industry to raise its prices (which it will, absent free and unfettered competition from imports). Tariffs and the like yield increased profits to those who control the domestic industries, simultaneously providing extra revenue to the government to waste. This does not improve the economy a whit. It does not increase wealth. It merely concentrates it into fewer hands. The people pay more to ensure that special interests, cronies and bureaucrats get more. The people retain less than they otherwise would have.

Over time, domestic industry gets less competitive. It operates in a state of insulation and soon falls behind external competitors. It produces increasingly out-dated, lower quality and even obsolescent goods to direct into what becomes a protected and guaranteed market. One is reminded of soviet consumer goods... What is encountered is an increasing ossification of “producers”, an ever increasing reliance by them on corporate welfarism established and maintained by government, an addiction to protection paid for by greater and greater expropriations heaped upon the hapless population. How is that “fair”?

The question as to why the US has seen the departure of productive enterprise to foreign climes addresses a different subject to that of imposing tariffs against free trade between consenting persons. This question directs to the conditions pertaining within the USA. That is, to the conditions which lead one to the inevitable conclusion that there are better places to engage in productive enterprises such as manufacturing.

Focus upon the regulations and taxes imposed on productive outfits attempting to operate within the USA. Look to the culture which has been created by government interferences against the best efforts of the productive- hindering them, even destroying some and gradually driving the rest away. Is it fair to emburden productive people (of which there is a strict minority surviving within the USA) with ever heavier imposts, restrictions and controls? Look carefully at the tens of thousands of pages of regulations presently in force within the USA. Read them. Seriously, take a long hard read. Find out what the savage effects of all this nonsense is. Be honest when you answer the question as to whether any of this is fair.

Finally, ask yourself whether you are being rational in believing (or even in merely hoping) that by adding yet more chapters of rules, regulations, imposts, tributes to be paid, limitations, trade barriers, restrictions, extractions, tariffs, licenses and taxes that the situation of the ordinary person is enriched and improved.

Ask and answer these with integrity and honesty, as it certainly is not fair for you to engage in supporting the harms deposited upon other people by government action.

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