Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

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mitch
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by mitch » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:54 am

sanfordandson wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:49 am
mitch wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:46 am
Isn't shooting teachers and armed guards against the law?
No idea. But if it is change the law.... #-o
Like that will change some nut cases mind

sanfordandson
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by sanfordandson » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:56 am

mitch wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:54 am
sanfordandson wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:49 am
mitch wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:46 am
Isn't shooting teachers and armed guards against the law?
No idea. But if it is change the law.... #-o
Like that will change some nut cases mind
You'll never change their minds. Just keep the tools away from them as best you can. Doing something is way better than doing nothing...

Zmechanic
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by Zmechanic » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:33 pm

lefty o wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:50 pm
heck we have laws, we even had an "assault weapons ban" for 10 years, and it didnt reduce crime.
We may very well have one in the future, too. I remember the last one, though. All it did was ban new manufacture or importation of weapons deemed "assault rifles". All previous ones were grandfathered in. They could be bought and sold just like they always had. To do otherwise would be mass confiscation, and well, you can imagine how well that would go over.

The largest effect I can remember of the last one is it did increase prices substantially, seeing as there was limited supply. But i'm not as sure it would have the same long term effect this time due to the likely exponential number of them that have been produced, distributed, and sold since the ban ran out in 2004.

The ban was largely bunk save for the magazine capacity, imho. I'm not debating the effectiveness of such legislation, but you have to have some next level denial to think a weapon with a non-detachable 5 round box magazine can be competitive in sustained rates of fire with a detachable 30 round magazine weapon. Regardless a determined person still could have sought one out and purchased one back then, too, because of the grandfather clause.

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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by exhaustgases » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:23 pm

Zmechanic wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:33 pm
lefty o wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:50 pm
heck we have laws, we even had an "assault weapons ban" for 10 years, and it didnt reduce crime.
We may very well have one in the future, too. I remember the last one, though. All it did was ban new manufacture or importation of weapons deemed "assault rifles". All previous ones were grandfathered in. They could be bought and sold just like they always had. To do otherwise would be mass confiscation, and well, you can imagine how well that would go over.

The largest effect I can remember of the last one is it did increase prices substantially, seeing as there was limited supply. But i'm not as sure it would have the same long term effect this time due to the likely exponential number of them that have been produced, distributed, and sold since the ban ran out in 2004.

The ban was largely bunk save for the magazine capacity, imho. I'm not debating the effectiveness of such legislation, but you have to have some next level denial to think a weapon with a non-detachable 5 round box magazine can be competitive in sustained rates of fire with a detachable 30 round magazine weapon. Regardless a determined person still could have sought one out and purchased one back then, too, because of the grandfather clause.
Hypothetical, so just what if. Certain things are done by dark ops, can they be classified as mentally ill since they take orders and do bad things?
That could go for anyone in various positions if they take illegal orders does that make them mentally ill?

elle
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by elle » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:33 pm

pdq67 wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:40 pm
David Redszus wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:37 pm
David Redszus wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:10 am
Thank you for posting such useful numbers; it saves the time needed to look them up.
Now let's analyze what they really mean. If we take the number of deaths due to firearms
(including suicides) and divide by the number of guns, we get deaths per million guns.

Please just take a look at the numbers:

1999 110.6 / million guns
2000 108.2
2001 109.5
2002 110.4
2003 108.0
2004 104.1
2005 106.2
2006 104.7
2007 103.4
2008 102.6
2009 99.3
2010 97.4
2011 96.9
2012 96.7

Do you still have the point of view then that it is a good idea to have so many firearms inside the US?
Absolutely!!!!

The data clearly indicate that as the number of weapons increased, the number of fatalities per million went down quite substantially. Over the 14 years cited, gun ownership increased by 33%, yet fatalities only increased by 16%. The fatalities per million guns was reduced by 13%.

The more guns we have, the safer we all are.

Even if you choose not to own a gun, be thankful that your neighbor does have several and could loan one
to you when needed.

Sorry David. This does indicate, that the first derivative of the number of guns with respect to time is greater than the first derivative of the number of victims with respect to time. Nothing more.
Wrong. The issue had nothing to do with time; it had to do with the number of guns compared to number of fatalities. The data clearly shows a decline in fatalities as a function of number of guns.
Please calculate the number of guns and the number of deaths that would be required to reach a ratio of zero at current rates / slopes. Would you call both numbers acceptable then?
Now we are playing silly math games. Is the downward slope linear? How will cultural changes in the future affect the projected data? Historical data can never be used for prediction.
How many jumps does it take for the frog...?
Damn, David's trying to interject logic and common sense into this to try to confound the stupid!

It's working too as I see it!

please carry-on!

You know when Granny's packin' and the f** muggers don't know it, they tend ta leave little Granny alone, now don't they!!

pdq67
The logic and common sense of Dr. Redzus is nothing but hot air. He is incabable of computing even the most simple model; two intersecting curves that intersect at a certain point. The coordinates of that point are what he is worried about. Because these are proving him and his "facts/propositions/statements" to be wrong. More guns equals more safety is proven wrong. Proven by himself.

I want to cite Albert Einstein: ,,All models are wrong, but some are useful." More guns equals more safety is not a useful model for a society with legal gun ownership at the current state of regulation.

Why is it that the pro gun people are unwilling have a compromise between gun ownership itself and regulation / law? Why is it that the contra gun people are not willing to accept, that a major part of the society wants to own guns?

The KILLED kids in Florida high school haven't even had the chance to choose between those two positions.

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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by Firedome8 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:38 pm

On Feb. 28, 2017, Trump signed H.J. Res. 40, effectively ending a Social Security Administration requirement that the names of people who receive mental health benefits be entered into a database used by the FBI for background checks on prospective buyers of firearms.

The requirement, which had yet to go into effect when Trump ended it, would have added the names of an estimated 75,000 individuals with mental illness to the database, according to the administration of former President Obama. These individuals would have been notified by the Social Security Administration of possible restrictions on their buying firearms, but would have had the opportunity to go through an appeal process.

Since ending the requirement, Trump has pointed to mental health issues as a root cause of a mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, where 26 people were killed in a church. He has also suggested that mental illness may have been a factor in the massacre at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, last week.

elle
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by elle » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:47 pm

Firedome8 wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:38 pm
On Feb. 28, 2017, Trump signed H.J. Res. 40, effectively ending a Social Security Administration requirement that the names of people who receive mental health benefits be entered into a database used by the FBI for background checks on prospective buyers of firearms.

The requirement, which had yet to go into effect when Trump ended it, would have added the names of an estimated 75,000 individuals with mental illness to the database, according to the administration of former President Obama. These individuals would have been notified by the Social Security Administration of possible restrictions on their buying firearms, but would have had the opportunity to go through an appeal process.

Since ending the requirement, Trump has pointed to mental health issues as a root cause of a mass shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, where 26 people were killed in a church. He has also suggested that mental illness may have been a factor in the massacre at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, last week.
would you mind sharing the source?


sanfordandson
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by sanfordandson » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:51 pm

https://www.snopes.com/trump-sign-bill- ... illnesses/

looks like its mostly true....the trumptards are sure to disagree... #-o

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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by engineczar » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:09 pm

It's true, now show us how it would have changed what happened in Florida.

David Redszus
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by David Redszus » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:56 pm

The logic and common sense of Dr. Redzus is nothing but hot air. He is incabable of computing even the most simple model; two intersecting curves that intersect at a certain point. The coordinates of that point are what he is worried about.
You have no idea what I am capable of, and I am not the least bit worried.
Because these are proving him and his "facts/propositions/statements" to be wrong. More guns equals more safety is proven wrong. Proven by himself.
Sheer nonsense. The facts speak otherwise. Those are not my facts but rather those used by law enforcement officials and the FBI. Where are your facts?
More guns equals more safety is not a useful model for a society with legal gun ownership at the current state of regulation.
More gibberish. Just what exactly does that mean? What is the current state of regulation? Where? Can you possibly try to write clearly instead of making silly, unsupported statements?
Why is it that the pro gun people are unwilling have a compromise between gun ownership itself and regulation / law?
Well that's simple. Gun ownership is a Constitutional right which shall not be infringed. Do you have any idea what that means? Secondly, gun usage, not gun ownership is the key determinant. Why is that so hard to understand?
y is it that the contra gun people are not willing to accept, that a major part of the society wants to own guns?
Because the issue has become politicized. A disarmed population is much more easily controlled; a fact proven throughout history. A state by state analysis of gun ownership vs armed crimes committed should settle the issue.

Our real problem is cultural. When a sitting President supports Black Lives Matter to encourage the killing of white police officers, our society is heading down the shittter. Since law enforcement has no legal mandate to prevent crime, the burden of self defense rests with the responsible armed citizen.
The KILLED kids in Florida high school haven't even had the chance to choose between those two positions.
Juveniles do not make those choices. Misguided adults make those choices. Broward County is heavily Democratic including elected officials. It was their responsibility to keep students safe; they failed miserably. Armed guards and a perimeter defense would have provided the time necessary to move kids to a secure area. The back of an open classroom is not a secure area.

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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by lefty o » Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:44 pm

Zmechanic wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:33 pm
lefty o wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:50 pm
heck we have laws, we even had an "assault weapons ban" for 10 years, and it didnt reduce crime.
We may very well have one in the future, too. I remember the last one, though. All it did was ban new manufacture or importation of weapons deemed "assault rifles". All previous ones were grandfathered in. They could be bought and sold just like they always had. To do otherwise would be mass confiscation, and well, you can imagine how well that would go over.

The largest effect I can remember of the last one is it did increase prices substantially, seeing as there was limited supply. But i'm not as sure it would have the same long term effect this time due to the likely exponential number of them that have been produced, distributed, and sold since the ban ran out in 2004.

The ban was largely bunk save for the magazine capacity, imho. I'm not debating the effectiveness of such legislation, but you have to have some next level denial to think a weapon with a non-detachable 5 round box magazine can be competitive in sustained rates of fire with a detachable 30 round magazine weapon. Regardless a determined person still could have sought one out and purchased one back then, too, because of the grandfather clause.
i dont feel under armed in any situation with my old M1 Garand with its 8rnd internal magazine. its not the guns, it is the kids who are not being taught right from wrong, and not learning how to deal with life. sadly even if we removed 100% of firearms from our society, these nut jobs would still find a way, as there are just way too many ways to kill large numbers of people if you have a mind to. until people realize its not the tool thats used that is the problem, it will keep happening. no matter how many more laws are passed and how many more restrictions are enacted. sadly laws do not stop crime.

sanfordandson
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by sanfordandson » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:28 pm

lefty o wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:44 pm
it will keep happening. no matter how many more laws are passed and how many more restrictions are enacted. sadly laws do not stop crime.
But yesterday you said to check out Israels gun laws which do exactly what you claim they dont.... [-X

lefty o
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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by lefty o » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:31 am

sanfordandson wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:28 pm
lefty o wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:44 pm
it will keep happening. no matter how many more laws are passed and how many more restrictions are enacted. sadly laws do not stop crime.
But yesterday you said to check out Israels gun laws which do exactly what you claim they dont.... [-X
you are stupid arent you. i never said check out the israelis gun laws, i said they arm their teachers. its not the laws, its the fact the israeli's dont have a problem killing those that wish to cause them harm. quit your trolling you little pos! you have absolutely got to be about the most sick disgusting little ftard that has ever walked the face of the earth. all you care about is causing problems!

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Re: Another mass shooting...this time a Florida school.

Post by engineczar » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:54 am

I don't think it's so much that you want to arm Teachers but to allow Teachers ( after careful additional vetting ) to conceal carry if they so choose. Right now anyone who wants to inflict harm knows that no one can fight back due to it being a "gun free zone". Not knowing if your target is going to shoot back would probably make someone think twice about it.

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