The Science of Disinformation

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Truckedup
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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by Truckedup » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:12 am

joe 90 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:58 am
I think you're a specialist in the bible.

The trouble with being a specialist is that you learn more and more about less and less so that eventually you know everything about nothing.
Then you get made redundant.

So I study lots and lots of things and have done since I figured out it was a waste of time being a specialist.
Now this is the truth ^^^^
Naked frame LSR bikes, dressed in animal hides clinging to machines propelled by fire...

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:39 pm

Truckedup wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:12 am
joe 90 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:58 am
I think you're a specialist in the bible.

The trouble with being a specialist is that you learn more and more about less and less so that eventually you know everything about nothing.
Then you get made redundant.

So I study lots and lots of things and have done since I figured out it was a waste of time being a specialist.
Now this is the truth ^^^^
Thats funny right there.
Considering the bible is the most highly documented ancient text on earth and has been scrutinized by many for many decades most of whom would love to prove it false. It will be studied for and against as long as the world remains but as for now it's accuracy and historicity stands.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by Circlotron » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:57 pm

joe 90 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:06 am
The KJ bible was translated to old English from latin (which I didn't learn at school)
I just had a look at a KJ Bible and on the title page it says “translated out of the *original* tongues”. The Old Testament was mostly in Hebrew and the New Testament mostly in koine Greek, with a bit of Aramaic tossed in for good measure.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by David Redszus » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:10 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:39 pm
Truckedup wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:12 am
joe 90 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:58 am
I think you're a specialist in the bible.

The trouble with being a specialist is that you learn more and more about less and less so that eventually you know everything about nothing.
Then you get made redundant.

So I study lots and lots of things and have done since I figured out it was a waste of time being a specialist.
Now this is the truth ^^^^
Thats funny right there.
Considering the bible is the most highly documented ancient text on earth and has been scrutinized by many for many decades most of whom would love to prove it false. It will be studied for and against as long as the world remains but as for now it's accuracy and historicity stands.
Both Confucious and the Buddah preceded Jesus by more than five hundred years. Both their teachings are much more significant than the Christian gospels. It is wise to remember that only about one third of the world population are Christian. And that Christian world population is not growing as fast as Islam.

While the Old Testament predates most other religious writings, it never mentions Jesus. Not once. Christianity must be based on the New Testament which is highly suspect in authorship and authenticity. Which bible is more important; the old or new? Or neither?

Methinks the later.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:33 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:10 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:39 pm
Truckedup wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:12 am


Now this is the truth ^^^^
Thats funny right there.
Considering the bible is the most highly documented ancient text on earth and has been scrutinized by many for many decades most of whom would love to prove it false. It will be studied for and against as long as the world remains but as for now it's accuracy and historicity stands.
Both Confucious and the Buddah preceded Jesus by more than five hundred years. Both their teachings are much more significant than the Christian gospels. It is wise to remember that only about one third of the world population are Christian. And that Christian world population is not growing as fast as Islam.

While the Old Testament predates most other religious writings, it never mentions Jesus. Not once. Christianity must be based on the New Testament which is highly suspect in authorship and authenticity. Which bible is more important; the old or new? Or neither?

Methinks the later.
The facts greatly out way your thoughts!

They are also still in their grave! So what did they do that was so much better, except for teach you that you will spend a life trying to achieve perfection unsuccessfully only to die and try again? If this is their first life then what sin or they trying to purge and pay for?

You should actually read the Old Testament before making those claims, there is a reason the Jews wanted Isaiah 52 and 53 removed from the Torah until they discovered the dead sea scrolls and found that prophecy was there well before Jesus.

There are 42 sources out side of the bible that historically document Jesus and the church, that's more than any other major historical figure.

Even the anti God scholars don't doubt the evidence of His existence or that He did what the Bible claims, they just don't accept that it was of God.

It's hard to dispute it's acuracy!
The Number of New Testament Manuscripts Compared with Other Ancient Books

In terms of quantity, the New Testament is represented far more than any other piece of ancient literature. Consider the known manuscripts of four well known Greek and Roman works: Homer was the earliest and most popular author of the ancient Greek world. His book, The Illiad, dates to 750 BC. To date, 647 manuscripts of this book have been found. Only 190 contain a complete copy. When compared to other classical Greek writing, Homer’s work is an exception. Copies of his work are much more plentiful than other ancient books. For example, Caesar’s Gallic War, dates to 50 BC. Only 9-10 manuscripts exist with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. Thucydides’ Peloponnesian War dates to 450 BC. Eight manuscripts have been found with the earliest copy dating to 900 AD. (There are some fragments of this book that date to the time of Jesus.) Finally, Tacitus’ Histories was written in 100 AD. Only two manuscripts are available. One dates to 800 AD, the other to 1000 AD.

In light of this, the number of ancient writings containing the New Testament is staggering. To date, over 5800 Greek New Testament fragments have been found (Taylor, 2012). Over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating from the 2nd to 16th century have been located. The earliest are in fragments that cover a substantial amount of the New Testament. Some manuscripts have also been found in a number of other languages, including Coptic, Syriac, Gothic, and Arabic. Taking all languages together, over 25,000 handwritten copies of the New Testament have been recovered. But there is more. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced by quotes from the ancient church fathers. “So extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament” (Metzger & Ehrman, 2005).

The number of manuscripts being found is continually growing. “Every decade and virtually every year new manuscripts are discovered. Meanwhile, the average classical author’s writings are found in about twenty extant manuscripts” (Komoszewski, Sawyer, & Wallace, 2006). The earliest manuscripts do not contain the entire New Testament. Some fragments contain just a verse or two, but still count as a manuscript.
http://www.bible.ca/ef/topical-the-earl ... cripts.htm

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by David Redszus » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm

You should actually read the Old Testament before making those claims,
Gary, it is most probable that I read the Old Testament, cover to cover, before you were born.
It was a waste of time back then and still is.

If you enjoy classical novels like the bible, read to your hearts content. But please stop preaching.

I, for one, don't give a damn about the bible or any other "sacred" book. Life's too short to waste time.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:09 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:58 pm
You should actually read the Old Testament before making those claims,
Gary, it is most probable that I read the Old Testament, cover to cover, before you were born.
It was a waste of time back then and still is.

If you enjoy classical novels like the bible, read to your hearts content. But please stop preaching.

I, for one, don't give a damn about the bible or any other "sacred" book. Life's too short to waste time.
No I like factual historical documents so the Bible fits well so please stop lying to people.

And yes life is short but eternity is not and I prefer to live them both to their fullest!

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:29 pm

David,
Since you brought them up and don't doubt their existence.
Confucius is believed to have lived from c. 551 to c. 479 BCE in the state of Lu (now Shandong or Shantung). However, the earliest written record of him dates from some four hundred years after his death in the Historical Records of Sima Qian (or Si-ma Ts‘ien).
https://www.ancient.eu/Confucius/

Historical Buddha
Statements like this are found in many books of world history, Indian history and history of religions. If this claim were correct, then it would be the earliest accurate date known in Indian history.

The reality is that there is not a unanimously accepted date for the historical Buddha’s life amongst scholars. In 1988 CE a symposium named “The Dating of the Historical Buddha” took place in Gottingen, Germany. The dates proposed by a group of experts who attended goes from 486 BCE to 261 BCE for the decease of the Buddha.

The disagreement we find in non-scholar Buddhist tradition is even stronger: the decease of the Buddha ranges widely from 2420 BCE to 290 BCE and most of them have no support on evidence.
https://www.ancient.eu/article/493/the- ... he-buddha/

And from the same source.
Jesus Christ (c. 6/4 BCE - c. 30 CE), also called Jesus son of Joseph, Jesus of Nazareth, Jesus of Galilee or simply “Christ”, was a Jewish religious leader who became a central figure in Christianity, regarded by most Christian branches as God himself. He is also considered an important prophet in Muslim tradition and the precursor of Prophet Muhammad.

The earliest of the four canonical gospels is believed to be Mark, written probably around 65-70 CE. Its content is not arranged chronologically, but according to subjects such as miracle stories, parables, pronouncement stories, etc. The only segment arranged chronologically is the Passion narrative (14.1-16.8). The two later synoptic gospels are Matthew, written around 85-90 CE, and Luke, about 90-100 CE.
https://www.ancient.eu/Jesus_Christ/

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by Circlotron » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:48 pm

GARY C wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:29 pm
Jesus Christ ... is also considered an important prophet in Muslim tradition and the precursor of Prophet Muhammad.
precursor - a person or thing that comes before another of the same kind; a forerunner.
Yeah, you'd have to be an expert to tell those two apart...

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:29 pm

Circlotron wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:48 pm
GARY C wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:29 pm
Jesus Christ ... is also considered an important prophet in Muslim tradition and the precursor of Prophet Muhammad.
precursor - a person or thing that comes before another of the same kind; a forerunner.
Yeah, you'd have to be an expert to tell those two apart...
It's clear that Jesus was much more than that but even the Muslims don't refuse his existence or miraculous works.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by David Redszus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:00 am

Jesus was a very common name in those days; much like John is today.
False prophets were also very common; much like Jesus.

A man named Jesus was killed by Jewish priests because he challenged their absolute power. This occurred on a regular basis.
Today it would be called draining the swamp.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:35 am

David Redszus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:00 am
Jesus was a very common name in those days; much like John is today.
False prophets were also very common; much like Jesus.

A man named Jesus was killed by Jewish priests because he challenged their absolute power. This occurred on a regular basis.
Today it would be called draining the swamp.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Do you ever wonder why He is the only historical figure that you are afraid to admit existed?

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:43 am

Probably just some dude named Jesus!
Of the 17 extra-Biblical non-Christian sources, 12 mention the cross and details of Jesus’ death within 100 or 150 years from the life of Jesus in all kinds of details.



“Christus (Christ)…suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate” (Tacitus, Roman Historian, 55-120 A.D.). Tiberius was the governor.



“Christians…worship a man to this day…who…was crucified on that account…[They] worshipped the crucified sage…” (Lucian, famous Greek Satirist). He called him a crucified sophist.



“Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teachings which he had given” (Mara Bar-Serapion, Syrian Writer). He tells his own son to emulate Jesus who gave his life.



“Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die...His disciples…reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive” (Flavius Josephus, 38-97 A.D.). Though it is disputed, the portion about the cross is believed. He also mentions Tiberius Caesar.



“Jesus…was nailed to a tree” (The Gospel of Truth, a Gnostic Source).



“On the whole world presented there presented a most fearful darkness…” at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus (Thallus, Samaritan).



“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar..” at the time of Jesus’ death (Phlegon, 80 A.D.). There was a lunar eclipse April 3, 33 AD (Julian).



Paul’s central teaching was the cross of Christ and His resurrection. The Koran was written six and a half centuries later (7th century), so it is really beside the point. It has two passages: one says Jesus died on the cross, the other says he did not. It’s hard to believe the Koran has much to contribute to what happen six and a half centuries earlier. Even the leading atheist scholar in the world considers the idea that Jesus didn’t die on the cross absurd. He said this “swoon theory is rubbish.”

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by David Redszus » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:59 am

GARY C wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:43 am
Probably just some dude named Jesus!
Of the 17 extra-Biblical non-Christian sources, 12 mention the cross and details of Jesus’ death within 100 or 150 years from the life of Jesus in all kinds of details.



“Christus (Christ)…suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate” (Tacitus, Roman Historian, 55-120 A.D.). Tiberius was the governor.



“Christians…worship a man to this day…who…was crucified on that account…[They] worshipped the crucified sage…” (Lucian, famous Greek Satirist). He called him a crucified sophist.



“Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teachings which he had given” (Mara Bar-Serapion, Syrian Writer). He tells his own son to emulate Jesus who gave his life.



“Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die...His disciples…reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive” (Flavius Josephus, 38-97 A.D.). Though it is disputed, the portion about the cross is believed. He also mentions Tiberius Caesar.



“Jesus…was nailed to a tree” (The Gospel of Truth, a Gnostic Source).



“On the whole world presented there presented a most fearful darkness…” at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus (Thallus, Samaritan).



“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar..” at the time of Jesus’ death (Phlegon, 80 A.D.). There was a lunar eclipse April 3, 33 AD (Julian).



Paul’s central teaching was the cross of Christ and His resurrection. The Koran was written six and a half centuries later (7th century), so it is really beside the point. It has two passages: one says Jesus died on the cross, the other says he did not. It’s hard to believe the Koran has much to contribute to what happen six and a half centuries earlier. Even the leading atheist scholar in the world considers the idea that Jesus didn’t die on the cross absurd. He said this “swoon theory is rubbish.”
First of all, i certainly am not afraid of any biblical matter, Jesus or otherwise. You may be, but not me.

Second, all the sources quoted above wrote at a much later date, they were not present at the critical time and based their writings on folklore and gossip. Folklore and revisionist history are very hard to believe. Why do you? What are you afraid of?
Are you afraid of being doomed for all eternity if you do not believe what some old dead guys made up?

Think of all those millions of lost souls who died before those old guys made up the eternal salvation myth.

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Re: The Science of Disinformation

Post by GARY C » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:31 am

David Redszus wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:59 am
GARY C wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:43 am
Probably just some dude named Jesus!
Of the 17 extra-Biblical non-Christian sources, 12 mention the cross and details of Jesus’ death within 100 or 150 years from the life of Jesus in all kinds of details.



“Christus (Christ)…suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate” (Tacitus, Roman Historian, 55-120 A.D.). Tiberius was the governor.



“Christians…worship a man to this day…who…was crucified on that account…[They] worshipped the crucified sage…” (Lucian, famous Greek Satirist). He called him a crucified sophist.



“Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teachings which he had given” (Mara Bar-Serapion, Syrian Writer). He tells his own son to emulate Jesus who gave his life.



“Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die...His disciples…reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive” (Flavius Josephus, 38-97 A.D.). Though it is disputed, the portion about the cross is believed. He also mentions Tiberius Caesar.



“Jesus…was nailed to a tree” (The Gospel of Truth, a Gnostic Source).



“On the whole world presented there presented a most fearful darkness…” at the time of the crucifixion of Jesus (Thallus, Samaritan).



“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar..” at the time of Jesus’ death (Phlegon, 80 A.D.). There was a lunar eclipse April 3, 33 AD (Julian).



Paul’s central teaching was the cross of Christ and His resurrection. The Koran was written six and a half centuries later (7th century), so it is really beside the point. It has two passages: one says Jesus died on the cross, the other says he did not. It’s hard to believe the Koran has much to contribute to what happen six and a half centuries earlier. Even the leading atheist scholar in the world considers the idea that Jesus didn’t die on the cross absurd. He said this “swoon theory is rubbish.”
First of all, i certainly am not afraid of any biblical matter, Jesus or otherwise. You may be, but not me.

Second, all the sources quoted above wrote at a much later date, they were not present at the critical time and based their writings on folklore and gossip. Folklore and revisionist history are very hard to believe. Why do you? What are you afraid of?
Are you afraid of being doomed for all eternity if you do not believe what some old dead guys made up?

Think of all those millions of lost souls who died before those old guys made up the eternal salvation myth.
Thats all addressed in the Bible but I am not using the bible or bible verse for evidence... I wouldn't want someone to accuse me of preaching.

So far it seems Science, History and Archeology is more than sufficient!

Why don't you have a problem with the late dating of the religious figures you think are better?
Their dating is far removed from their existence.

I keep waiting for you to show evidence for your dating claim, it would be beneficial for the discussion.

But for now I will stick to what is historically known and studied by scholars.
Tacitus. Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 55 120 A.D.) was a Roman historian who lived through the reigns of over a half dozen Roman emperors. He has been called the “greatest historian” of ancient Rome, an individual generally acknowledged among scholars for his moral “integrity and essential goodness.”(1)

Tacitus is best known for two works — the Annals and the Histories. The former is thought to have included eighteen books and the latter to have included twelve, for a total of thirty.(2) The Annals cover the period from Augustus’ death in 14 A.D. to that of Nero in 68 A.D., while the Histories begin after Nero’s death and proceed to that of Domitian in 96 A.D.

Tacitus recorded at least one reference to Christ and two to early Christianity, one in each of his major works. The most important one is that found in the Annals, written about 115 A.D. The following was recounted concerning the great fire in Rome during the reign of Nero:
Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.(3)
From this report we can learn several facts, both explicit and implicit, concerning Christ and the Christians who lived in Rome in the 60s A.D. Chronologically, we may ascertain the following information.

(1) Christians were named for their founder, Christus (from the Latin), (2) who was put to death by the Roman procurator Pontius Pilatus (also Latin), (3) during the reign of emperor Tiberius (14 37 A.D.). (4) His death ended the “superstition” for a short time, (5) but it broke out again, (6) especially in Judaea, where the teaching had its origin.

(7) His followers carried his doctrine to Rome. (8) When the great fire destroyed a large part of the city during the reign of Nero (54 68 A.D.), the emperor placed the blame on the Christians who lived in Rome. (9) Tacitus reports that this group was hated for their abominations. (10) These Christians were arrested after pleading guilty, (11) and many were convicted for “hatred for mankind.” (12) They were mocked and (13) then tortured, including being “nailed to crosses” or burnt to death. (14) Because of these actions, the people had compassion on the Christians. (15) Tacitus therefore concluded that such punishments were not for the public good but were simply “to glut one man’s cruelty.”(4)

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