Take a knee like a slave

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by mk e » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:26 pm

sanfordandson wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:15 pm
David says "you have no idea what most americans think"

david then proceeds to tell us whats on the mind of most trump voters...


david is a special kind of stupid.. =D> :lol:
When I first started looking at the politics section here and read one of his posts I thought I had the name mixed up. The guy who posts in the engine sections always has well reasoned and supported opinions, I thought this couldn't possibly be the same guy could it? Turns out it is, I have no idea how data driven above becomes purely emotion driven below....weird.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by mitch » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:40 pm

mk e wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:59 am
mitch wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:45 am

More of your predictions an thinking you know what other people think
Maybe, its the most probable outcome but probable is not at all the same as certain...extrapolation is always risky.

UNCLE!!!

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by David Redszus » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:25 pm

Turns out it is, I have no idea how data driven above becomes purely emotion driven below....weird.
Actually, I have little use for emotion, especially the hate emotion.
Everything I write is based on data, never on emotion. That would serve no purpose.

You may not agree and that is your prerogative, perverse as it may be.

Healthy, useful debate and exchange of ideas sinks to the jackass level when we seek to attack the messenger personally instead of his ideas. Please don't let that happen to you; you seem too smart to sink to that level. For some, that is all they can do and we expect little more.

Also, please check your spelling; you would be much easier to read.

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by mk e » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:44 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:25 pm
Turns out it is, I have no idea how data driven above becomes purely emotion driven below....weird.

Healthy, useful debate and exchange of ideas sinks to the jackass level when we seek to attack the messenger personally instead of his ideas. Please don't let that happen to you; you seem too smart to sink to that level. For some, that is all they can do and we expect little more.
You're right. I should not have posted that, please accept my apology.

Here's my concern. You said we can't know what people think.....but I know that you know that's not true. We can ask anybody what they think. We can look at polling, or voting results and know what what a population thinks, within a standard deviation or 2. We can know...so why would you assert we can't, then in the next sentence make a statement about what people think?

To me, those pieces just don't go together........unless I look at what the data said, and I think it said most people don't like Rump very much. To me rejecting data I don't like means the choice is based on emotion......and I made a pretty poor choice on how i said that.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by exhaustgases » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:43 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:30 pm
mk e wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:59 pm
sanfordandson wrote:
Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:04 am


And I'm sure it can be shot down in 2 sentences or less like usual.

Bring it on marshmallow. :mrgreen:


Yeah...its A little sad. I used to trust his posts in other sections but now feel compelled to fact check or ignore pretty much everything he writes.



Yeah...its a little sad you two guys do not understand the real cause of the civil war. You guys are no better than dumb NFL players. Consider going back to your schools and asking for a tuition refund. You were educationally cheated.


The real cause of the Civil War
Slavery has been practiced by virtually all societies (European, Middle Eastern, Asian, American Indian, South American, African) and religions (Christians, Moslems, Jews) for thousands of years. It was the labor force of the ancient Greeks (Plato, Socrates, etc.), Romans, Persians and Egyptians that allowed those societies to reach the lofty heights of civilization.

Slavery was brought to the Western Hemisphere by Columbus to provide labor for silver mining, sugar cane, and later, cotton plantations. It allowed European colonial powers to extract the wealth of their conquests. American slavery dates from 1620 and includes both black and whites.

Prior to 1800, while the northern United States moved toward industrialized production, the Southern states moved toward agriculture as the prime economic driver; mostly due to favorable soil, and temperature and moisture conditions. Cotton was the major export product and revenue producer in the South. As such, it relied heavily on cheap farm labor in the form of indentured servitude which was not at all uncommon. The rising cost of labor gave the production edge to cotton produced in Egypt and reduced the need for servitude in bond.

In 1794, Whitney invented the cotton gin which dramatically reduced the labor cost of processing cotton and measurably expanded the export demand and increased the need for additional labor; the South now needed a large labor force called farm slaves. The expansion of slavery brought massive wealth to the antebellum Southern plantations. By 1840, the per capita income of the Southern worker exceeded that of the Northern worker. The living conditions of plantation slaves was about the same as northern city Irish immigrants.

From 1803, England fought against Napoleon in Europe. England relied on revenue from Egyptian cotton and saw the rise of low cost US cotton as a problem. They enlisted the assistance of US abolitionists in an effort to ban the use of slave labor in the South and reduce the source of competitive cotton production. The abolitionists applied political pressure to Lincoln’s Republican Party.

Eleven Southern states saw the looming economic disaster soon to be imposed and voted to Declare Independence and leave the Union in 1860. They acted just as the American Colonists had acted toward England just a few years before. Four additional slave states objected to the platform of the abolitionists but did not secede.
A last ditch compromise effort to prevent secession, the Corwin Amendment passed Congress, which would forever provide federal protection for all slave states below LAT 36o 30’. It read:

“No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give Congress the power to abolish or interfere within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.”

Lincoln supported the Corwin Amendment. He said:

“I understand a proposed amendment to the Constitution has passed Congress, to the effect that the Federal Government shall never interfere with the domestic institution of the states, including that of persons held to service…holding such a position to be now implied Constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable.”

The Corwin Amendment, having passed Congress, also passed in Ohio, Kansas, Rhode Island, Maryland, Illinois. It failed to obtain the ¾ approval largely because the Southern states had already seceded from the Union and did not vote on it.
Lincoln was stuck; his legal escape route, the Corbin Amendment did not pass and the South had seceded. He could not allow the South to leave since their economic impact was massive and yet the abolitionists applied relentless pressure. He was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He could easily live with slavery and all its benefits to the Union but not with a Confederate State withdrawn from the Union.

His only option was to go to war against the Confederacy. But how? On what basis?
Ft. Sumter was a military fort of disputed ownership between the Union and South Carolina. The Confederate army laid siege to the fort. Lincoln sent troops and supplies to Ft. Sumter causing the Confederate army to attack and the battle was joined. The date was April 12, 1861.

No effort was made to free the slaves either in the North or South. But the war was on.
Lincoln finally issued his Emancipation Proclamation, effective Jan 1, 1863, after almost two years of fighting. It did not free all slaves. It freed the slaves only in those states fighting against the Union army. The intent was to incite a slave revolt against the plantation owners and entice slaves to fight against the Confederate army.

What happened to the freed slaves? Nothing changed. The war went on while hundreds of thousands of Americans, on both sides, died needlessly. Vast plantations, croplands, shipping docks, livestock and homes in the South were needlessly destroyed. The economy of the South was ruined and it took many years to partially repair. And the repair process over the next 35 years made matters much worse. We can get into racism, the KKK, Jim Crow laws and lynchings if you guys would like to unlearn your biases.

Worst of all, the aftermath of the war left scars on both black and white from which we suffer yet today.

The Civil War was fought over the principle of states rights. Most Americans, north and south, did not object to slavery as witnessed by the passage of the Corwin Amendment by Congress. Lincoln did not free any slaves until well after the war was fought for nearly two years. Lincoln freed certain slaves as a military expedient and for no other reason. Two thirds of all Southerners who did not own slaves, fought in favor of the Confederacy.

In all, thirteen states and two territories (plus the Choctaw Indian nation) joined the Confederate States of America. Many joined the Confederacy even though slavery was not an issue in their state.
And the best thing after the war was the homesteading act. Trump needs to bring it back along with the real freedom that it allows.

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by David Redszus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:18 pm

mk e wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:44 pm
David Redszus wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:25 pm
Turns out it is, I have no idea how data driven above becomes purely emotion driven below....weird.

Healthy, useful debate and exchange of ideas sinks to the jackass level when we seek to attack the messenger personally instead of his ideas. Please don't let that happen to you; you seem too smart to sink to that level. For some, that is all they can do and we expect little more.
You're right. I should not have posted that, please accept my apology.

Here's my concern. You said we can't know what people think.....but I know that you know that's not true. We can ask anybody what they think. We can look at polling, or voting results and know what what a population thinks, within a standard deviation or 2. We can know...so why would you assert we can't, then in the next sentence make a statement about what people think?

To me, those pieces just don't go together........unless I look at what the data said, and I think it said most people don't like Rump very much. To me rejecting data I don't like means the choice is based on emotion......and I made a pretty poor choice on how i said that.
In my wayward youth, I spent many years as a marketing consultant doing market surveys and consumer studies, including focus groups and extensive polling. When our clients proceeded to make use of the collected data, the end results were often opposed to that predicted by data. Consumers lied; they were not comfortable telling the researcher the truth. They told the researcher what he/she wanted to hear instead.

A second problem is that consumers do not know how they would accept or reject a product or idea that is completely new to them; they have no frame of reference. That was clear when we worked with Mercedes Benz. They were developing products 7-8 years in advance that would have a market life of 7-8 years. Consumers could not visualize how they would respond to a product concept 15 years from now. They were forced to shorten their product life spans.

A third problem was that consumers would resolutely maintain their support for a product or concept...then change their minds. Several times.

The business world is littered with market studies that wrongly predicted consumer (and voter) outcomes.

In politics, it is common for a politician to find a parade and jump in front as if he had organized it and take credit for it.. Very common in Chicago; former home of Obama and Hillary.

That's what Trump did, intentionally or otherwise. He did not come up with all those ideas and programs. There were/are a popular backlash resulting from liberal, leftist, socialist abuses. If Trump goes away, the outraged backlash still remains among a very large part of the US population (including all those who did not vote).

Nothing either political party says or does will affect their support bases which are actually quite small, perhaps no more than 1/3 of the voters. The other 2/3 are watching, unimpressed by either party, waiting to see who makes the most sense to them. Most will decide only at the last minute and not a minute before, no matter what they may say.

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by axegrinder » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:45 pm

David Redszus wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:18 pm
There were/are a popular backlash resulting from liberal, leftist, socialist abuses. If Trump goes away, the outraged backlash still remains among a very large part of the US population (including all those who did not vote).
That sums it up! =D> Trump is just the sledge hammer until the handle breaks. Then we look for another hammer, or saw.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by mk e » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:44 am

axegrinder wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:45 pm
David Redszus wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:18 pm
There were/are a popular backlash resulting from liberal, leftist, socialist abuses. If Trump goes away, the outraged backlash still remains among a very large part of the US population (including all those who did not vote).
That sums it up! =D> Trump is just the sledge hammer until the handle breaks. Then we look for another hammer, or saw.
Yes, its exaclty right...the question though is the size of the movement? So I'll repeat that 54% voted against it and all indications are that a portion of those who voted for Rump were voting against her as opposed to for him or whatever movement he is the face of.

Current polling suggests the movement is around 20-30%, but maybe was a liuttle higher back in November.

Back to know what people are thinking. David made 2 main points I think,
1) people lie
2) they don't know what they want becasause they can't conceive things they've never seen of experienced.

Both are right and wrong from my experience in product development which unlike David I've never escaped.

1) - do they lie? No, not usually. What they do is tell you what they think the right answer is, not what they actually do. They will even vote that way which is probably how we got prohibition that most people didn't want but thought was "right". Another example is a congressman here in PA who is a big pro-life guy, until he throught his mistress was pregnats then it was just stuff his people write for him.

Any question that touches a "right-wrong" issue the answer you will get is what they believe "right" is, not what they personally would actually do, that needs to be understood going in or the wrong interpetation of the answers will be made. Asking questions that get at the same information in different ways is about the only way...like instead of asking about prohibition talk about home brewing or wine at mass. There are ways.

2) people not knowing or thinking about a future state they can't conceive. This is a quote that is probably fake but makes the point, if Henry Ford had asked his customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse, I think this is exactly David's point.

I use that as an example of a great answer and also a great example of why suggestions from the puplic are not design specs.

When a person says they need a faster horse they are speaking in terms they understand so it's up to the development team to make sense of it.

faster horse...ok....
What are you going to do with that horse? Ride it? Hook it to a wagon or buggy? Hook it to a plow?

You stay in terms the person understands but try get at the core need or want.....in the case of a car it is a way to move people and material from point a to point b in less total time - going faster in 1910 wouldn't really help much because the roads were awaful, but more capacity and less time getting going, fewer stops, less maintenence, these things become the what are called the "User requirements" and those are turned into clear specifications that can be measured and designed to.

So again I say, we can know what people are thinking but no, it can't usually be known from a single question or any other single data point or statistic. It requires effort.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by axegrinder » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:15 pm

mk e wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:44 am
axegrinder wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:45 pm
David Redszus wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:18 pm
There were/are a popular backlash resulting from liberal, leftist, socialist abuses. If Trump goes away, the outraged backlash still remains among a very large part of the US population (including all those who did not vote).
That sums it up! =D> Trump is just the sledge hammer until the handle breaks. Then we look for another hammer, or saw.
Yes, its exaclty right...the question though is the size of the movement? So I'll repeat that 54% voted against it and all indications are that a portion of those who voted for Rump were voting against her as opposed to for him or whatever movement he is the face of.

Current polling suggests the movement is around 20-30%, but maybe was a liuttle higher back in November.

Back to know what people are thinking. David made 2 main points I think,
1) people lie
2) they don't know what they want becasause they can't conceive things they've never seen of experienced.

Both are right and wrong from my experience in product development which unlike David I've never escaped.

1) - do they lie? No, not usually. What they do is tell you what they think the right answer is, not what they actually do. They will even vote that way which is probably how we got prohibition that most people didn't want but thought was "right". Another example is a congressman here in PA who is a big pro-life guy, until he throught his mistress was pregnats then it was just stuff his people write for him.

Any question that touches a "right-wrong" issue the answer you will get is what they believe "right" is, not what they personally would actually do, that needs to be understood going in or the wrong interpetation of the answers will be made. Asking questions that get at the same information in different ways is about the only way...like instead of asking about prohibition talk about home brewing or wine at mass. There are ways.

2) people not knowing or thinking about a future state they can't conceive. This is a quote that is probably fake but makes the point, if Henry Ford had asked his customers what they wanted they would have said a faster horse, I think this is exactly David's point.

I use that as an example of a great answer and also a great example of why suggestions from the puplic are not design specs.

When a person says they need a faster horse they are speaking in terms they understand so it's up to the development team to make sense of it.

faster horse...ok....
What are you going to do with that horse? Ride it? Hook it to a wagon or buggy? Hook it to a plow?

You stay in terms the person understands but try get at the core need or want.....in the case of a car it is a way to move people and material from point a to point b in less total time - going faster in 1910 wouldn't really help much because the roads were awaful, but more capacity and less time getting going, fewer stops, less maintenence, these things become the what are called the "User requirements" and those are turned into clear specifications that can be measured and designed to.

So again I say, we can know what people are thinking but no, it can't usually be known from a single question or any other single data point or statistic. It requires effort.
Question of the size of the movement: The 54% thing doesn't matter because the popular vote will not be used in 2020 to decide the presidency. He could possibly lose the popular vote by a wider margin next time, and still win the electoral vote. So obviously the movement is strategically placed and just big enough.

Can we know what people are thinking: Only with a substantial margin of error. THEN WE HAVE THE REAL PROBLEM. Like David said, people lie. But not just the people being polled. Numbers don't lie but in this political age it's really hard to believe much of anything completely because there is manipulation and an agenda. Trump's election has really hurt all polling credibility.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by mk e » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:30 pm

axegrinder wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:15 pm
Trump's election has really hurt all polling credibility.
The polling said he had a 30% chance. Those are not very big odds to beat and the public numbers we're a week old and tending it Rump's direction at about 2-3 point a per week after the Comey stuff. Given that they hit the popular vote almost dead on.

You're right that the popular vote doesn't decide the race but its not irrelevent either. The rebups are having trouble passing anything and feel no obligation to follow an unpopular president that can't help them keeps their jobs. Also don't forget Rump won by less than 1%in the 3 states that decided the races and has dropped 8 pints since taking office, so no he can't loss by more than she did and still win and no he likely wouldn't win if the election were today.....he got pretty lucky, but it was about she was also really disliked so it was 3:1
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by axegrinder » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:12 pm

mk e wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:30 pm
axegrinder wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:15 pm
Trump's election has really hurt all polling credibility.
The polling said he had a 30% chance. Those are not very big odds to beat and the public numbers we're a week old and tending it Rump's direction at about 2-3 point a per week after the Comey stuff. Given that they hit the popular vote almost dead on.

You're right that the popular vote doesn't decide the race but its not irrelevent either. The rebups are having trouble passing anything and feel no obligation to follow an unpopular president that can't help them keeps their jobs. Also don't forget Rump won by less than 1%in the 3 states that decided the races and has dropped 8 pints since taking office, so no he can't loss by more than she did and still win and no he likely wouldn't win if the election were today.....he got pretty lucky, but it was about she was also really disliked so it was 3:1
Hard to call it luck when he had over 300 electoral votes and did it with half the money as his opponent. And the popular vote going against Trump is not what makes Republicans ineffective. They've had that under control on their own for 9 years now.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by mk e » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:18 pm

axegrinder wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:12 pm

Hard to call it luck when he had over 300 electoral votes and did it with half the money as his opponent.
The electoral system is designed to create a clear winner. Rump's entire electoral margin came from less thana1% win in 3 states and that likely came from Comey. The stars aligned for him in the last 2 weeks.
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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by David Redszus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:53 pm

So I'll repeat that 54% voted against it and all indications are that a portion of those who voted for Rump were voting against her as opposed to for him or whatever movement he is the face of.

Would you please explain what do you mean by "54% voted against it"? And indicate your data source.

The number of eligible voters in the US is 217,000,000, of which 30.3% voted for Clinton and 29.0% voted for Trump.
This gives her a popular vote margin of just 1.3%. That means 88,000,000 eligible US voters did not vote for either candidate; 40% of voters abstained entirely.

That is a huge voting block, far greater than any other voter segment, which could swing the next election in a massive way.

The fact remains that Trump creamed the Bitch in the only place that counts: the electoral college.
And Republicans dominated the entire country on a county by county basis.
End of story.

Meanwhile, the very stupid NFL is doing its very best to drive a large portion of those 88 million potential voters into Trumps re-election avalanche.

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by sanfordandson » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:18 am

David Redszus wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:53 pm
So I'll repeat that 54% voted against it and all indications are that a portion of those who voted for Rump were voting against her as opposed to for him or whatever movement he is the face of.

Would you please explain what do you mean by "54% voted against it"? And indicate your data source.

The number of eligible voters in the US is 217,000,000, of which 30.3% voted for Clinton and 29.0% voted for Trump.
This gives her a popular vote margin of just 1.3%. That means 88,000,000 eligible US voters did not vote for either candidate; 40% of voters abstained entirely.
I used to think you weren't THAT stupid. Maybe your just playing dumb which still makes you stupid... :lol:

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Re: Take a knee like a slave

Post by David Redszus » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:51 pm

Sandy, your very dumb personal attacks are getting a bit old and tired and worthless.

Don't you have anything of substance to say or are you committed to simply puking up the same old garbage?

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