Another day, another health care bill failure...

Any topic with a chance of polarization - Not for the easily offended.

Moderator: Team

Post Reply
mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by mk e » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:05 am

blykins wrote: I want it the way it was before Obama ruined it. There was no issues then before socialism was the "in thing"
You mean when emergency rooms and/or hospitals closures were rampart and a big chuck of people couldn't get medical coverage at any price? Yeah, that was awsome! :roll:

Read again, very carefully.....I'm not 40 yet and wasn't even close to it when Obamacare came out. Rates went up drastically whenever Obamacare took effect and then went up drastically again last year, when all the insurance companies started dropping out because Obamacare is a failure.

20% is not whining when that's a $200 PER MONTH increase for no reason, except for that guys are lazy, don't wanna work, and we have to foot the bill for it.[/quote]

Rates go up for everyone every year, and the older you get the more they go up.....thats life and you don't get an 8 year old rate today.

You're one of the 3ish% in the exchange then and (well) above the subsidy line? If so you're right thst its a bad place.....but the problem has nothing to do with people not working, their insurance is paid for by subsidies.

The problem is a combination of low penalty for not buying, low difference young to old (its limited to 3x) and the rwwuirement to cover prw-existing conditions. Together they mean young heathly people who can live without insurance dont bury insurance unless something major goes wrong, and everyone left gets a pretty high bill. The Senate proposal to increase the young old difference to ...I think it was 5x or 7x and massively increase the penalty for not buying (they dont call it a personal mandate, but its effectively the same) would help people like you LOT....hopefully something like this moves forward.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by mk e » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:11 am

Dave Koehler wrote:Trump is not the problem. His weird actions pushed it to this point. Maybe, just maybe he inadvertently helped.
It is scary to think that may have been his actual intent all along to break the gridlock.
Doesn't matter. If it works out he will take/get the credit. If not only Obama will be pleased.
Without Rump they would have been here 2 months ago and it would have been the leadership driving, they had been "warning" everyone one that if the bill failed they'd need to work with Dems to fix Oblahblah care.....which after a repeal vote for show was the plan.

Now leadership has been backed into a corner a bit and have had to step back and make it appear others are moving....that probably limits what can be done to basically stuff that can be called emergency measures.....we'll see.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

1989TransAm
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4992
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:43 pm
Location: Cypress, California

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by 1989TransAm » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:42 am

mk e wrote:
1989TransAm wrote:Story out today from NBC so this has to be taken with a big grain of salt. Moving on they say that suddenly Republicans and dimoKKKRATs want to fix Obamacare. So are they finally thinking about the people over their own egos? We shall see.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... spartandhp
That was always the plan, failed repeal vote followed by repairing oblahblahcare....your boy Rump delayed it a bit and still doesn't seem to comprehend he's the problem not the solution, but things are moving in the right direction now in spite of him.
Now that is just idiotic. You are joining the ranks of S&S and firedome. Trump has always said he would welcome dimoKKKRAT help. The difference is he does not want this to morph into a single payer plan which would be doomed to failure.

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by mk e » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:59 am

1989TransAm wrote:
Trump has always said he would welcome dimoKKKRAT help.
Which like most everything that comes out of his mouth was a lie. He wants his "team" to win, nothing more.
1989TransAm wrote: The difference is he does not want this to morph into a single payer plan which would be doomed to failure.
He doesn't give a shit what the bill looks like And will sign whatever shows up on his desk which is looking more and more that it will be minor tweets that specifically prevent him from taking any of the nonsensical actions he's been threatening this week....and he'll sign it. He's a turd.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

User avatar
Dave Koehler
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3350
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
Location: Urbana, IL USA
Contact:

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by Dave Koehler » Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:59 am

mk e wrote:
Dave Koehler wrote:Trump is not the problem. His weird actions pushed it to this point. Maybe, just maybe he inadvertently helped.
It is scary to think that may have been his actual intent all along to break the gridlock.
Doesn't matter. If it works out he will take/get the credit. If not only Obama will be pleased.
Without Rump they would have been here 2 months ago and it would have been the leadership driving, they had been "warning" everyone one that if the bill failed they'd need to work with Dems to fix Oblahblah care.....which after a repeal vote for show was the plan.

Now leadership has been backed into a corner a bit and have had to step back and make it appear others are moving....that probably limits what can be done to basically stuff that can be called emergency measures.....we'll see.
Me thinks you put way too much faith in the modern elected officials.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by mk e » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:16 pm

Dave Koehler wrote: Me thinks you put way too much faith in the modern elected officials.
You might be right, but they all know they'll need to answer for their results at some point and I think most want to do what's right....but agreeing in what's right can be a tad challenging.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

User avatar
Dave Koehler
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3350
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:19 pm
Location: Urbana, IL USA
Contact:

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by Dave Koehler » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:23 pm

If we take Trump on face value then yes he will sign anything so he can say he kept his promise.
However
If his promise is as solid as the Military and the lgbt thing promises don't mean much. Such is the same with all politicians, real or imagined.

Other promises
While I don't believe in the transgender thing it is already out there and being dealt with. Changing it like he did will just create more chaos I think.
It would have been better to fine tune it so if you are transgender and sign up fine BUT we are not paying for you to make the change AFTER you sign up.
Maybe that's already in there but the thought occurred to me some would take advantage of the sign up then want the change and cost us all money. That's an elective surgery thing not a subsidized perk.
Dave Koehler - Koehler Injection
Fuel Injection - Nitrous Charger - Balancing - Nitrous Master software
http://www.koehlerinjection.com
"Never let a race car know that you are in a hurry."

blykins
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1750
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:59 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by blykins » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:33 pm

mk e wrote:
blykins wrote: I want it the way it was before Obama ruined it. There was no issues then before socialism was the "in thing"
You mean when emergency rooms and/or hospitals closures were rampart and a big chuck of people couldn't get medical coverage at any price? Yeah, that was awsome! :roll:

Read again, very carefully.....I'm not 40 yet and wasn't even close to it when Obamacare came out. Rates went up drastically whenever Obamacare took effect and then went up drastically again last year, when all the insurance companies started dropping out because Obamacare is a failure.

20% is not whining when that's a $200 PER MONTH increase for no reason, except for that guys are lazy, don't wanna work, and we have to foot the bill for it.
Rates go up for everyone every year, and the older you get the more they go up.....thats life and you don't get an 8 year old rate today.

You're one of the 3ish% in the exchange then and (well) above the subsidy line? If so you're right thst its a bad place.....but the problem has nothing to do with people not working, their insurance is paid for by subsidies.

The problem is a combination of low penalty for not buying, low difference young to old (its limited to 3x) and the rwwuirement to cover prw-existing conditions. Together they mean young heathly people who can live without insurance dont bury insurance unless something major goes wrong, and everyone left gets a pretty high bill. The Senate proposal to increase the young old difference to ...I think it was 5x or 7x and massively increase the penalty for not buying (they dont call it a personal mandate, but its effectively the same) would help people like you LOT....hopefully something like this moves forward.[/quote]

I've lived in 3 cities in the past 17 years and I don't remember any hospital or ER closures in any of them.

I do agree that people not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is a bad thing....something needs to be done about that. However, my rates were not going up yearly because of my age. The rates went up immediately and quite drastically when Obamacare came into effect.
Lykins Motorsports
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.lykinsmotorsports.com

User avatar
dfree383
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1977
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:01 pm
Location: The Sand Box

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by dfree383 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:42 pm


David Redszus
Guru
Guru
Posts: 5727
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:27 am
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by David Redszus » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:54 pm

I do agree that people not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is a bad thing....something needs to be done about that.
The whole idea of health care insurance is a bit convoluted. It is not insurance at all.

Insurance amounts to buying protection against some catastrophic, unseen event.
Health care is not an unseen event, though it can be catastrophic.

At some point in their life, everyone will need some sort of health care.
The question then becomes: who's gonna pay for it. The answer is: someone else but not me.

Buying health insurance after existing conditions is a terrible idea; much like buying auto
insurance only after a crash.

Any type of national health care, by any name, simply is an attempt to transfer payments to
someone else; be it employer or taxpayer. We should pay for our own health care and not expect
someone else to pick up the tab for our health related recklessness. As Mickey Mantle said,
"If I had known I was gonna live this long, I woulda taken better care of my self."

Tax exempt, health savings accounts would be a very good idea. Start saving for your own
health old age and don't expect me to help pay for yours. I have enough problems of my own.

The bottom line is that national health care or socialized medicine by any other name, simply
amounts to little more than a transfer of wealth; a favorite fantasy of all socialists.

Dump the entire idea of government mandated health care and go back to the free market
where freedom of choice will always produce the best overall outcome.

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by mk e » Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:58 pm

blykins wrote:
I've lived in 3 cities in the past 17 years and I don't remember any hospital or ER closures in any of them.

I do agree that people not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is a bad thing....something needs to be done about that. However, my rates were not going up yearly because of my age. The rates went up immediately and quite drastically when Obamacare came into effect.
ER closures were a huge deal, maybe not where you were specifically, but nationally 6% had closed in just a few years, mostly in poor areas (rual and urban) because poor people were using ERs as free health clinics:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/05/health/em ... index.html

When you are young, there is little difference between 30 or 30 health risk wise....but by the time you hit 40 you have significantly higher risk and at 40 should pay about double.....you may have crossed a line. Or it could be just the pre-existing conditions in while young healthy go out thing, that is a very real problem in the ecchanges.

I can tell you healthcare costs have gone up about 6%/yr so about 20% every 3 years and we all pay for that no matter what insurance system or want to have.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

blykins
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1750
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:59 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by blykins » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:35 pm

David Redszus wrote:
I do agree that people not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is a bad thing....something needs to be done about that.
The whole idea of health care insurance is a bit convoluted. It is not insurance at all.

Insurance amounts to buying protection against some catastrophic, unseen event.
Health care is not an unseen event, though it can be catastrophic.

At some point in their life, everyone will need some sort of health care.
The question then becomes: who's gonna pay for it. The answer is: someone else but not me.

Buying health insurance after existing conditions is a terrible idea; much like buying auto
insurance only after a crash.

Any type of national health care, by any name, simply is an attempt to transfer payments to
someone else; be it employer or taxpayer. We should pay for our own health care and not expect
someone else to pick up the tab for our health related recklessness. As Mickey Mantle said,
"If I had known I was gonna live this long, I woulda taken better care of my self."

Tax exempt, health savings accounts would be a very good idea. Start saving for your own
health old age and don't expect me to help pay for yours. I have enough problems of my own.

The bottom line is that national health care or socialized medicine by any other name, simply
amounts to little more than a transfer of wealth; a favorite fantasy of all socialists.

Dump the entire idea of government mandated health care and go back to the free market
where freedom of choice will always produce the best overall outcome.
Only bad thing is that you may have insurance, then you're forced to go with another provider. As soon as you try to pre-enroll with another provider and they find out that you do have a pre-existing condition, you're up the creek.

I do agree with you though.....the government needs to stay out of health care. Socialism never works.
Lykins Motorsports
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.lykinsmotorsports.com

blykins
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1750
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:59 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by blykins » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:37 pm

mk e wrote:
blykins wrote:
I've lived in 3 cities in the past 17 years and I don't remember any hospital or ER closures in any of them.

I do agree that people not being able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions is a bad thing....something needs to be done about that. However, my rates were not going up yearly because of my age. The rates went up immediately and quite drastically when Obamacare came into effect.
ER closures were a huge deal, maybe not where you were specifically, but nationally 6% had closed in just a few years, mostly in poor areas (rual and urban) because poor people were using ERs as free health clinics:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/05/health/em ... index.html

When you are young, there is little difference between 30 or 30 health risk wise....but by the time you hit 40 you have significantly higher risk and at 40 should pay about double.....you may have crossed a line. Or it could be just the pre-existing conditions in while young healthy go out thing, that is a very real problem in the ecchanges.

I can tell you healthcare costs have gone up about 6%/yr so about 20% every 3 years and we all pay for that no matter what insurance system or want to have.
You should know better than to quote CNN here. They have absolutely no clout, and that viewpoint should be shared by both liberals and Republicans.

Prices go up on everything. My cable bill used to jump $20-40 a year. That's part of inflation, the economy, etc. However, I have NEVER seen health insurance go up 20% in one year.....until Obamacare came out.

You seem to be arguing in favor of government healthcare, which reaffirms my position that you should have always been voting Democrat. You don't share any Republican values.
Last edited by blykins on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lykins Motorsports
brent@lykinsmotorsports.com
www.lykinsmotorsports.com

mk e
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3009
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:19 pm
Location: Elverson, PA

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by mk e » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:38 pm

Dave Koehler wrote:If we take Trump on face value then yes he will sign anything so he can say he kept his promise.
However
If his promise is as solid as the Military and the lgbt thing promises don't mean much. Such is the same with all politicians, real or imagined.

Other promises
While I don't believe in the transgender thing it is already out there and being dealt with. Changing it like he did will just create more chaos I think.
It would have been better to fine tune it so if you are transgender and sign up fine BUT we are not paying for you to make the change AFTER you sign up.
Maybe that's already in there but the thought occurred to me some would take advantage of the sign up then want the change and cost us all money. That's an elective surgery thing not a subsidized perk.
His word is pretty much worthless....there is a reason his business deals almost exclusively with foreign banks in or connected to dicatorships looking to launder money.

I read the military trans-ban was part of a deal he did with someone in the house to get the 1.6B for the wal moving....before asking if it was a deal he could actually make. Once a regulation is in you need a real reason to change it and it needs to go through a real process...you can't tweet and make it so and once he issues the proper order it will almost certainly be stopped by the courts unless he has evidence that its harming the miliary and the generals say its not so its propbably DOA.

I agree completely with your thought that surgeryies should not be on the public dime....but other than that I dont see the issue as long as they meet the standards for the job they want.
Mark
Mechanical Engineer

1989TransAm
Guru
Guru
Posts: 4992
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:43 pm
Location: Cypress, California

Re: Another day, another health care bill failure...

Post by 1989TransAm » Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:44 pm

mk e wrote:
Dave Koehler wrote:If we take Trump on face value then yes he will sign anything so he can say he kept his promise.
However
If his promise is as solid as the Military and the lgbt thing promises don't mean much. Such is the same with all politicians, real or imagined.

Other promises
While I don't believe in the transgender thing it is already out there and being dealt with. Changing it like he did will just create more chaos I think.
It would have been better to fine tune it so if you are transgender and sign up fine BUT we are not paying for you to make the change AFTER you sign up.
Maybe that's already in there but the thought occurred to me some would take advantage of the sign up then want the change and cost us all money. That's an elective surgery thing not a subsidized perk.
His word is pretty much worthless....there is a reason his business deals almost exclusively with foreign banks in or connected to dicatorships looking to launder money.
Now that is just so much bullshit. He is one of the very few Presidents to keep his word to the voters for one thing. He is doing what he said he would do on the campaign trail. That in itself is remarkable.

Post Reply