Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Tech questions that don't fit above forums

Moderator: Team

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:24 am

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:48 am
I am just teasing.
I did think linguistics was important enough to study it formally at university and to study four foreign languages. In Europe, learning multiple languages is very unremarkable. Samantha had three spoken within her family as a young child.
While I will admit I didn't study linguistics at Trade School I did study dissonance part time.

Below is a post I made "pre stroke" on the Engine-motor topic:

"I saw it make a difference when I was a kid pumping gas part time at a local ESSO.

The owner, an older gent who spoke in a somewhat mumbled way, one morning told Wilf the mechanic they were changing the motor in an old Chevy sitting in the bay.

While Fred, the owner, went to town to pick up a heater motor Wilf got busy removing the old 6 cyl Engine.

Wilf, smoking a cigarette, proudly had the Engine on the floor by the time Fred returned.

I thought you were going to the wreckers to pick up a motor!!

No, I went to Capital Auto Parts to get a heater motor!!

I don't think Fred and Wilf ever resolved who was right, but that's when I realized there is a difference, or should I say "dissonance".

I've been contemplating and discussing this for over 50 yrs now and can't think of a rational reason to call an Engine a motor.

Most Motor oils proclaim greater "Engine" protection.

Ford Motor Company proudly prints Engine specs in their factory brochures.

They probably now have motor specs for hybrid/electric.

Oddly electrical guys never call motors "Engines".

Disappointingly, many Engine guys post in "Engine Tech" there is no difference.

My guess it the term "motoring" is the source of confusion.

Traveling in a self propelled vehicle.

Jackie Stewart competed in Motor Racing, a sport that involved a complete motor vehicle.

Not just an Engine."

That's what the Engine Masters Challenge is about.

Thanks
Randy
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:16 am

GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:24 am
While I will admit I didn't study linguistics at Trade School I did study dissonance part time.

Below is a post I made "pre stroke" on the Engine-motor topic:

"I saw it make a difference when I was a kid pumping gas part time at a local ESSO.

The owner, an older gent who spoke in a somewhat mumbled way, one morning told Wilf the mechanic they were changing the motor in an old Chevy sitting in the bay.

While Fred, the owner, went to town to pick up a heater motor Wilf got busy removing the old 6 cyl Engine.

Wilf, smoking a cigarette, proudly had the Engine on the floor by the time Fred returned.

I thought you were going to the wreckers to pick up a motor!!

No, I went to Capital Auto Parts to get a heater motor!!
They both apparently forgot that old Chevy's ALSO had windshield wiper motors. They were vacuum powered and then became electric.

You see how it is easy to inject or superimpose another level of mistake or to simply focus on one level of the error made and ignore another possible interpretation.

On an old VW that I had, the "pump" for the windshield washer fluid was the over-inflated spare tire. That mistaken quest could eat up some time in a repair shop as well.

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:22 am

Trust me, I have spent a lot of time manually looking up words in a dictionary. The OED was present in the school library and took up quite a bit of shelf space. Now you have to pay a subscription.

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:33 am

GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:01 am
...
As you know my point is many unmindful Engine guys call Engines motors.

I've yet to meet an electric motor guy who calls an electric motor an Engine.

...
:wink: You do understand that you are citing as evidence one group of engineers/technicians who have maintained a fairly consistent jargon over more than one hundred years. So, why didn't automotive engineers/technicians do the same?

User avatar
MadBill
Guru
Guru
Posts: 14136
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:41 am
Location: The Great White North

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by MadBill » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:14 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:22 am
Trust me, I have spent a lot of time manually looking up words in a dictionary. The OED was present in the school library and took up quite a bit of shelf space. Now you have to pay a subscription.
I just go to sites like this: https://www.dictionary.com/ They even speak the word, to save you trying to remember those weird pronunciation guides...
Felix, qui potuit rerum cognscere causas.

Happy is he who can discover the cause of things.

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:31 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:16 am
GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:24 am
While I will admit I didn't study linguistics at Trade School I did study dissonance part time.

Below is a post I made "pre stroke" on the Engine-motor topic:

"I saw it make a difference when I was a kid pumping gas part time at a local ESSO.

The owner, an older gent who spoke in a somewhat mumbled way, one morning told Wilf the mechanic they were changing the motor in an old Chevy sitting in the bay.

While Fred, the owner, went to town to pick up a heater motor Wilf got busy removing the old 6 cyl Engine.

Wilf, smoking a cigarette, proudly had the Engine on the floor by the time Fred returned.

I thought you were going to the wreckers to pick up a motor!!

No, I went to Capital Auto Parts to get a heater motor!!
They both apparently forgot that old Chevy's ALSO had windshield wiper motors. They were vacuum powered and then became electric.

You see how it is easy to inject or superimpose another level of mistake or to simply focus on one level of the error made and ignore another possible interpretation.

On an old VW that I had, the "pump" for the windshield washer fluid was the over-inflated spare tire. That mistaken quest could eat up some time in a repair shop as well.
I'm not sure if you're missing the point or are reliving your high school debate team experience where one had to defend a point however inconsistent with one's personal observations??

I think there are a few more stories than mine where someone was instructed to service/repair/inspect/replace a motor and instead serviced/repaired/inspected/replaced an Engine

However, in all my years, I've yet to learn of anyone instructed to service/repair/inspect/replace an Engine, servicing/repairing/inspecting/replacing a motor instead.

In my experience, most of the time someone references a motor it's usually prefaced with its intended use, EG: heater motor, wiper motor starter motor etc.to avoid obvious confusion.

Unfortunately many educated, and uneducated, mechanical types, mechanics, Engine shops, writers etc still seem to think Engine and motor are interchangeable.

Fortunately, electrical types see the difference, at least that's what they communicate.

The VW washer system was ingenious but attempts to trick the unsuspecting usually failed as it was so obvious with even a cursory glance.
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:37 pm

Image

on eBay -- twenty volumes.

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:33 am
GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:01 am
...
As you know my point is many unmindful Engine guys call Engines motors.

I've yet to meet an electric motor guy who calls an electric motor an Engine.

...
:wink: You do understand that you are citing as evidence one group of engineers/technicians who have maintained a fairly consistent jargon over more than one hundred years. So, why didn't automotive engineers/technicians do the same?
BINGO!!

This my friend is the great unanswered question:

Why are electrical types more accurate than Engine types??

Could it be translation, often Engine translates to moteur type words??

Could motoring ( traveling in a powered conveyance) be the source of confusion??

One clue the planets are aligning is GM and Chrysler now proudly offer CRATE ENGINES!!

Another is many oil companies advertise their motor oil is good for your Engine!

Possibly during the next hundred years the jargon will become correctly consistent.

No more tearing down statues!!

Thanks
Randy
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:14 pm

:lol:

Okay, when I grew up we had a full set of the 1911 Encyclopaedia Brittanica -- it is a famous edition. I have two later sets to compare it to. This set is available online -- the one our family had is now located in California. It was given to us by a German family in Chicago when the owner passed away. Along with the cabinet of encyclopaedia volumes came a trunk with many old German books.

It is a fine example of scholarship largely absent today and if you read the section on Motorcars you will find that engine and motor are used as synonyms. Somewhere along the way someone came up with a contrived chain of reasoning to separate what were originally synonyms at least with respect to our hobby/profession.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/1911_Enc ... r_Vehicles

To wit:
Gottlieb Daimler's engine marked a great advance in the production of a source of motive power, for its efficiency was large as compared with its total weight, whilst the simplicity of its fuel system brought it within the scope of the person of average mechanical instincts and intelligence, for, even in its early days, the internal-combustion motor did not demand that its user should possess an intimate knowledge of engineering.
So, yes, I remember high school debate class but I was also one of those strange people that read really old books. I learned to read German Fraktur in order to read original versions of texts by German logicians in the 1900s. Yep, I was an odd duck.

Image
GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:33 am
GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:01 am
...
As you know my point is many unmindful Engine guys call Engines motors.

I've yet to meet an electric motor guy who calls an electric motor an Engine.

...
:wink: You do understand that you are citing as evidence one group of engineers/technicians who have maintained a fairly consistent jargon over more than one hundred years. So, why didn't automotive engineers/technicians do the same?
BINGO!!

This my friend is the great unanswered question:

Why are electrical types more accurate than Engine types??

Could it be translation, often Engine translates to moteur type words??

Could motoring ( traveling in a powered conveyance) be the source of confusion??

One clue the planets are aligning is GM and Chrysler now proudly offer CRATE ENGINES!!

Another is many oil companies advertise their motor oil is good for your Engine!

Possibly during the next hundred years the jargon will become correctly consistent.

No more tearing down statues!!

Thanks
Randy

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:01 pm

Admittedly, I just skimmed through your link but there many Engine references as to specs etc.

Other than electric cars, motor seems to be linked to "motor car," not the Engine.

I'm sure you'll post some applicable sentences when you get a chance!!

My own family encyclopedia from the 1950's made clear distinction between Engine and motor.

It did state Engines were often referred to as motors but from memory it considered that slang.

This was also before "aint" was accepted as a word.

Now rim is an accepted term for a wheel but that doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

There's no sane reason to call an Engine a motor, same goes for calling an Engine a motor.

Smokey called Engines motors through his career but addressed this in his last book series.

He thought about it and stated he was incorrect all along, Engines were not motors!!

Personally I'm a great reader, house is full of books but in the end I make my own decisions.

My interpretation is based on over 50 yrs of reading, listening and contemplating, not taken lightly.

I'm not trying to convince you or anyone I am correct, that is your decision, not mine.

Also, I don't mind being corrected when someone accurately corrects me, I actually thank them.

Thanks
Randy
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:18 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:14 pm
:lol:

.To wit:
Gottlieb Daimler's engine marked a great advance in the production of a source of motive power, for its efficiency was large as compared with its total weight, whilst the simplicity of its fuel system brought it within the scope of the person of average mechanical instincts and intelligence, for, even in its early days, the internal-combustion motor did not demand that its user should possess an intimate knowledge of engineering.
Yep, I was an odd duck.

WAS LOL !!

Just kidding.

Your quote serves to bolster my stance on interpretation:

It's clearly defined as an internal combustion motor, not just a motor.

Very kind of you to honestly post this.

GLHS60 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:43 pm
Kevin Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:33 am




BINGO!!

This my friend is the great unanswered question:

Why are electrical types more accurate than Engine types??

Could it be translation, often Engine translates to moteur type words??



Thanks
Randy
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:25 pm

:wink:

Okay, you have defined the era: 1950s

I have here in my office a set of the Encyclopaedia Britannica from 1958. I also have a Webster's Dictionary from 1961 (I believe I also have one from 1951 if you prefer).

The entry in EB has not changed in notation from 1911: Motor, Electric. This means that an electric motor is an element of the set of motors, not vice versa.

The entry in the dictionary is very clear that a motor is a direct synonym for an internal combustion engine. I am sorry that you have remembered it as slang because it is not.

I can only most strenuously emphasize that it is important to retain period references lest specious attempts to rewrite history prevail. [-X

1958 Br a.jpg
1958 Br b.JPG
1958 Br c.JPG
web 1961 a.jpg
web 1961 b.jpg
Aside: The dictionaries belong to Samantha -- she is one smart cookie. We purchased the 1958 EB together while visiting a bookstore.

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:04 am

With all due respect to Samantha, whom I don't doubt is one smart cookie, these are opinions.

I certainly accept most every dictionary shares the belief that Engine and Motor are synonyms.

However, my exhaustive research paints a different picture, especially today.

Ford Motor Company has a line if clearly defined CRATE ENGINES, not crate motors.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/engines/

General Motors has a line of clearly defined CRATE ENGINES, not crate motors:

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/category/ENG.html

Mopar just released a HELLEPHANT CRATE ENGINE, not crate motor:

Mopar celebrated HEMI Day (4/26) by unleashing pre-orders for the 1,000 horsepower “Hellephant” 426 Supercharged Crate HEMI Engine and Kit. Originally unveiled at the 2018 SEMA Show in Las Vegas last fall, the “Hellephant” is a Mopar-first for a 1,000-horsepower crate engine kit offered by an Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), paired with a stunning 950 lb.-ft. of torque.

Many others unwittingly offer crate motors, without a care in the world!

Interestingly, manufactures rate Engine Torque in lb-ft, not ft-lb.but that's another discussion.

Thanks
Randy
Last edited by GLHS60 on Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

GLHS60
Expert
Expert
Posts: 591
Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 1:55 am
Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by GLHS60 » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:47 am

Recent online dictionary etc searches of INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE brings appropriate answers.

None I found contain any reference to motors.

Language translators routinely translate ENGINE from ENGLISH to German: MOTOR: French: MOTEUR: Danish: MOTOR: Finnish: MOOTTORI:

May be possibly due to many immigrants from the old country maintaining their original untranslated word??

SAMANTHA??

Also interesting, almost every translation of motor is either motor or a very similar word to motor.

None I found are even remotely like Engine.

Thanks
Randy
Sherwood Park
Alberta,Canada

Kevin Johnson
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7857
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:41 am

Re: Why does a limited slip cause the rear to go sideways?

Post by Kevin Johnson » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:58 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pYU0p6WZhU

Extensive research has led to the exact source of the engine meme; circa 1963: Brian Wilson and Roger Christian.

My job is done.

Post Reply