O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby pdq67 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:54 pm

Javk,

I saw an old Packard, ('49/53??), in a Boneyard back when I was in school.

It had a 3-speed, stick, OD in it, was it the T-85 tranny?

I do remember popping the hood and seeing that LOOOOONG, flathead straight-8 in it!

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby PackardV8 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:08 pm

pdq67 wrote:Javk,

I saw an old Packard, ('49/53??), in a Boneyard back when I was in school.

It had a 3-speed, stick, OD in it, was it the T-85 tranny?

I do remember popping the hood and seeing that LOOOOONG, flathead straight-8 in it!

pdq67
No, Packard built their own transmissions up through '54, but did use the Borg-Warner overdrive section.

When the V8 came along in '55-56, Packard used the Borg-Warner T85 in a short tailshaft fixed yoke in the Golden Hawk and a long tailshaft slip yoke in the Packard sedans.
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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby autogear » Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:04 pm

From George Sollish (our Chief Engineer) :

The Volvo OD was a Laycock Denormanville design (similar to the GearVendors); and being a planetary design, and very overbuilt - input torque AS LONG AS YOU DO *NOT* USE IT as a "gear splitter" - shouldn't be a problem.

I don't know of anyone with a *new* Hone-o-drive; but their asking price is VERY high

Warner Gear offered Corvette (probably at Corvette's request) a T10-R11 combo circa 1974, orders were placed and cancelled when WG pulled out the tooling for the R11. The R11 tooling was shot, and Corvette didn't want to buy new tooling.

Enter the Doug Nash 4+3 quagmire some years later.

We could definitely do what is being asked; but you're looking at ~$60k in tooling and castings, and probably a $2-3k buy in price. And, its not going to fit nicely under a stock corvette floorpan regardless. Also, the side-mounted shifter mounting gets interesting when you add an adapter housing and a bulbous OD behind it.

Option 2 would be an aftermarket T5z or TKO; but opt for the mildest OD ratio (.82 - .75) based on your rear gear.

US Gear also had a Doug Nash OD that went in the middle of the d/shaft. This also plays havoc with your driveline angles.

To the OP: Go to a Z-ratio gearset (2.98/2.04/1.46/1.00) and a rear axle ratio in the 2.90 - 3.23 range

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby 70GS455 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:33 pm

How's the noise with a Z gearset?
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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby pdq67 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:24 pm

How about one of the, "quick-change", style rear ends that are out there?

Say 2.50 for top end and 4.00 for drag sort a deal??

Probably take longer to drain the grease and refill than it would take to do anything else...

OR.

Two 9" pumpkins, one, like 2.50 for top end and the other a 4.00 for drag.....

My classmate back in HS could change out a 9" pumpkin in like 45 minutes FLAT!! And I watched him do it under his '56 Vicky!!

I don't think it was a, "Crown Vick", though, but it might has been, it's been too many years since 1965!!!

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby autogear » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:13 am

The 2 speed axle is way easier to design on the driveshaft side of the pumpkin, rather than a QC type setup on the back of the pumpkin - You run the risk of crashing into things like gas tanks and whatnot. Its already a niche market, you don't want to pare it down even more because of fitment issues

To 70GS455:
The noise on our M22 or M23 gearboxes is not an issue in 4th gear as these are "direct drive" transmissions. In 4th gear, the transmission is not using any gear reduction at all. It will be essentially silent. This is one of the benefits of the direct drive 4 speeds or the DNE/Richmond 4+1 5-speed.
The noise in our reduction gears (1st, 2nd and 3rd) is often times quieter than the original 4-speeds of the 60s/ 70s. We aren't concerned with high speed production and assembly. We don't have to fight to save three cents. We hold our gear manufacturer (Euroricambi spA / Antonio Masiero) to higher manufacturing standards using modern gear cutting and heat treating equipment, modern statistical process control and ground gearing where possible instead of "hobbed & shaved". We engineered our prints. We own our prints and we hold our manufacturers to our prints. We do not reverse engineer data from a sample part, or use worn out tooling thats been passed around for 20+ years.
When your parts are more accurate; and there's less variation from part to part...the gearbox will be much quieter, and yet much stronger. When used with an aftermarket Supercase; you're giving the geartrain a more solid foundation, which means less NVH as well. I do get a fair amount of people who complain that with the new gearbox being so quiet, now they notice the ring n pinon howling LOL

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby pdq67 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:34 pm

Well, now back to that MUNCIE 5-Speed!

He, He!!

Where can I get a set of prints for an M-20 Muncie?

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby pdq67 » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:59 pm

pdq67 wrote:Well, now back to that MUNCIE 5-Speed!

He, He!!

Where can I get a set of prints for an M-20 Muncie?

pdq67


He, He!!

I am point blank asking you Autogear!!

And I am not trying to be hard to get along with here either, but..... Please send me a set of drawings if you have them. PM me..

I would really like to see for myself what it would take to make a Muncie 5-speed. Put the 5th gear in the tail housing if possible.

It would be a hoot to create a REAL Muncie 5-speed!!

pdq67

PS., if I can figure out how to put together a Targa, 2001 Ball Point Pen for WE Schaeffer Pen, I can make a 5-speed.

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby autogear » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:52 am

Paul;

Thats way above my paygrade. If you want to talk about gearbox design, call and talk to George some morning before noon.

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby novadude » Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:27 pm

My opinion is that there ain't no way to design a "5-speed" Muncie that fits in the same overall space as an existing Muncie 4-speed with a side-mounted shifter. If you've ever been in one, you'll see there isn't a lot of wasted space in the case / tail. If it was that easy, George would have done it already.

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby autogear » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:13 pm

pdq67 wrote:
pdq67 wrote:Well, now back to that MUNCIE 5-Speed!

He, He!!

Where can I get a set of prints for an M-20 Muncie?

pdq67


He, He!!

I am point blank asking you Autogear!!

PS., if I can figure out how to put together a Targa, 2001 Ball Point Pen for WE Schaeffer Pen, I can make a 5-speed.


I dunno Paul; the entire world has been waiting for your 301 for at LEAST 6 years....I mean its no ball-point; but people have already built those HE HE!!
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Last edited by autogear on Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby autogear » Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:16 pm

novadude wrote:My opinion is that there ain't no way to design a "5-speed" Muncie that fits in the same overall space as an existing Muncie 4-speed with a side-mounted shifter. If you've ever been in one, you'll see there isn't a lot of wasted space in the case / tail. If it was that easy, George would have done it already.


Something has to give; it's one thing to build something for yourself and have it 'function' and to hold yourself entirely responsible for its success or failure. Its entirely different to sell a product to people of varying mechanical and driver aptitude, and offer a real warranty. If all cars had tall tunnels and fixed yokes, and didn't have a console; our lives would be easy LOL :)

Thanks for the kind words and common sense

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby MadBill » Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:33 pm

I know it's a "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"-type question autogear, but I saw one of your Muncie cases at Liberty's a month or so back and it's one tough-looking piece! Do you have any rough torque/HP limits for a stock M21, ditto M22 and the best Autogear package?
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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby autogear » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:28 pm

Bill

My boss George is going to shoot me for tackling this; but its Monday so why not.

Thanks for the kind words. George doesn't offer HP/TQ ratings (We have customers in road racing, on the street, LSR, off-road, drag racing, and one twin-engine, blown Vincent motorcycle streamliner). Each of those applications has very different requirements for the gearbox. Even Richmonds ST10 had ratings way less than 400hp across several different gear ratios.

That being said; the stock Muncie M21 was designed around 1961 and debuted late in '63. It would have been designed for the engines of the day, and primarily for the Corvette (close ratios were designed solely for road racing at the time). '63-only Muncies are kind of weird, and definitely were designed before the 360+HP 327s were on the road. 64-65 Muncies have a skinny 7/8" countershaft pin and thin synchro rings. '66-70 Muncies use a 1" countershaft and sturdier synchro rings. '71-74 Muncies use the 1" countershaft, sturdier rings and upgrade to the 26-spline input and 32-spline output.

The problem with all Muncies is the case; the OE geartrain is far stronger than the factory case and weird, narrow 307 ball bearing.
I would say from a conservative point of view, every day driveability and 30,000mi lifespan...I'd be comfortable using a 66-70 Muncie with around 400hp (drag racing with slicks not included). I'd bump the fine-spline Muncie only slightly higher...because the 32-spline output was done to harmonize around the TH400 architecture (not lack of strength), you're still using the undershod casting with the skinny bearing. The only REAL bonus is the 26-spline input.

An OE NOS geartrain in our case is probably good into the 450s (Assuming M20/21 on the street). If it was an actual M22 gearset from GM, genuinely NOS, marginally higher. Its important to remember that a 50-hp difference between 500 - 550 is a lot different than 250-300 in this case. Also of importance is the fact that 2nd gear in a Muncie is stronger than 1st (remember it was designed for road racing).

At some point you run into the next weakest link; which will be the factory midplate.

Now; our stuff:

I routinely have customers with a complete M23 gearbox pushing between 600-750hp/ft-lbs on a case-by-case basis. We routinely spend a half hour or more reviewing each application and assessing the customers needs and wants. If a customer was willing to live with routine preventative maintenance and had a well sorted out clutch, suspension and tire package; with attention to bellhousing concentricity and parallelism...you could easily push it higher. If you put an M23-style 1st gear next to an M22-style 1st gear...the M23 design is probably 3x stronger. That borders on salesmanship; because you're still left with the underlying structure (case casting, ball bearing etc.) We are probably looking at 20-25% more strength as a system.
The M23 series uses a hardened steel thrust button pressed into the front wall, to control countershaft/clustergear movement and enhance durability of the casting (A356-T6). The 1st gear uses less helix angle than the M22, to increase strength, while still benefiting from helical overlap. The multi-piece ("modular") cluster gear uses tight press fits and huge DIN snaprings to increase the number of ratios (27 and climbing), reduce maintenance costs, allow more modern manufacturing processes (ground gearing) and the "stub shaft" of the cluster is the European equivalent to SAE9310. Our synchro assemblies are lighter and tighter fitting, we use forged synchro rings, bronze-backed thrust washers, a lighter weight mainshaft, a C355 aluminum midplate and a REM-type polishing process to deburr and polish the internals. Even the sidecover and shift forks have gone through design revisions to enhance durability and strength.
Heres a link to one being put together; theres one mistake in the voice over: our sidecover isn't steel, and we now use bronze bushings instead of the stacked caged needles seen in the video.
http://www.powerblocktv.com/episode/MC2 ... Bd-w8UhFxV

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Re: O.D. Bolt on to Muncie. (Gear vendors type)

Postby pdq67 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:06 pm

"a C355 aluminum midplate"

I thought you installed a steel or cast-iron midplate?

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