Engine Masters 2019

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Walter R. Malik
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:48 am

Mummert wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:09 pm
Joe-71 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:24 pm
Has ANYONE gotten an answer to their questions back from EMC? It is getting rather late in the year for ordering parts and getting backordered parts in time to do any real dyno testing.
No, my camshaft question has gone unanswered
IF things are the same as in many previous EMC contests ... after an "acceptance" email is received, another email will follow to make a clarification of certain rules which have been questioned.
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Adger Smith » Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:20 am

Answer to a few things I saw on this thread.
1968 was chosen for several reasons, never to just exclude an engine group.
Someone made the comment that IF 1969 was the cut off year it would be a different contest.
That is a very true statement.
No open chamber heads, No Cleveland's, Only Street Hemi with intakes that meet the rules, Same for the Max Wedge and some of the Fords that came with multiple carbs. The applications will be reviewed.
It just so happens that technology started taking off after 1968.
We got a lot of improvements in the HP wars from the factories after 1968 that went into cars that cold be bought off the showroom floor.
These rules are based loosely on NHRA Stock and Super Stock rules.
Heads must match the engine cubic inches that NHRA allows in their Classification Guide Blueprinting guide.
No aftermarket replacement heads in iron or Alum. allowed.
No cross breeding of engine combinations. No stroking or De stroking of engine combinations that exceeds the .015 + or - rule.
I will be using the NHRA guide during tech and the heads on your application will be approved or turned down.
You must run what is on the application.
I have answered ever question that has been sent to me by MTG.
Camshaft question??
The revised rules should have answered any camshaft question.
We will be reviewing the applications next week and if anything on the applications is not to the letter of the rules we will contact the applicant for correction.
I feel this chance to make corrections is important since not everyone has experience with NHRA casting numbers and combinations for NHRA Stock and Super Stock.
Yes the engines that were running in the original "Vintage Class" will get a pass on certain rules. Intake and headers being the most notable.
We didn't want to exclude engines and contestants that have shown interest and support to EMC.
Yes, Coyote and Future builder are not going to make it.
What I have been told is The program is being trimmed to 4 days and more Old Iron applications reviewed.
The plans as they stand will be to have awards given on Thursday night at the banquet.
Sorry, no one told me Speed Talk was back up. I would have helped with your questions sooner.
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RAMM
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by RAMM » Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:34 pm

Thankyou for some clarification Adger. I am one of those with little knowledge of NHRA Stock/SuperStock rules. Are there any links to these rules a fellow ST'r could point me to? Any idea when the particiapant list comes out? I'm looking forward to the EMC @ the JE pistons facility and hope we make the cut. J.Rob
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by JonKaase » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:06 pm

Adger, did they get enough LS entries?

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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by gmrocket » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:41 pm

Adger Smith wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:20 am
Answer to a few things I saw on this thread.
1968 was chosen for several reasons, never to just exclude an engine group.
Someone made the comment that IF 1969 was the cut off year it would be a different contest.
That is a very true statement.
No open chamber heads, No Cleveland's, Only Street Hemi with intakes that meet the rules, Same for the Max Wedge and some of the Fords that came with multiple carbs. The applications will be reviewed.
It just so happens that technology started taking off after 1968.
We got a lot of improvements in the HP wars from the factories after 1968 that went into cars that cold be bought off the showroom floor.
These rules are based loosely on NHRA Stock and Super Stock rules.
Heads must match the engine cubic inches that NHRA allows in their Classification Guide Blueprinting guide.
No aftermarket replacement heads in iron or Alum. allowed.
No cross breeding of engine combinations. No stroking or De stroking of engine combinations that exceeds the .015 + or - rule.
I will be using the NHRA guide during tech and the heads on your application will be approved or turned down.
You must run what is on the application.
I have answered ever question that has been sent to me by MTG.
Camshaft question??
The revised rules should have answered any camshaft question.
We will be reviewing the applications next week and if anything on the applications is not to the letter of the rules we will contact the applicant for correction.
I feel this chance to make corrections is important since not everyone has experience with NHRA casting numbers and combinations for NHRA Stock and Super Stock.
Yes the engines that were running in the original "Vintage Class" will get a pass on certain rules. Intake and headers being the most notable.
We didn't want to exclude engines and contestants that have shown interest and support to EMC.
Yes, Coyote and Future builder are not going to make it.
What I have been told is The program is being trimmed to 4 days and more Old Iron applications reviewed.
The plans as they stand will be to have awards given on Thursday night at the banquet.
Sorry, no one told me Speed Talk was back up. I would have helped with your questions sooner.
Will you be accepting more new applicants for the old iron then?

Seems like the classes and rules where being modified right up until the application date deadline, which is fine. I think the rules are better now than when they were first released

I would have entered if the rules were as they are now.

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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Mummert » Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:55 pm

Adger Smith wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:20 am
.
These rules are based " loosely" on NHRA Stock and Super Stock rules.
Heads must match the engine cubic inches that NHRA allows in their Classification Guide Blueprinting guide.
No cross breeding of engine combinations. No stroking or De stroking of engine combinations that exceeds the .015 + or - rule.
I will be using the NHRA guide during tech and the heads on your application will be approved or turned down.
You must run what is on the application.
I have answered ever question that has been sent to me by MTG.
Camshaft question??
The revised rules should have answered any camshaft question.
We will be reviewing the applications next week and if anything on the applications is not to the letter of the rules we will contact the applicant for correction.
I feel this chance to make corrections is important since not everyone has experience with NHRA casting numbers and combinations for NHRA Stock and Super Stock.
I hope this doesn't go from being fun, to a PITA. In essence I'm trying to build a 68' 302 4 barrel engine, which is a basically 302 with 289 heads.
Do I have to find the real C80E-F heads or build a 289 based on my heads, can I put a 289 crank in 302 block if I enter it as a 289? 289 blocks are kind of hard to find. My pistons are .030"' which means Id have to find a Std 289.
If you hole a head porting and cant repair it, can you find a comparable head like a C6 even if it has smog holes drilled in it.

Hopefully the reality that the builders will be trying to find 50 year old parts allows for some tolerance.

My cam question about was sent to questions@engine masters
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by JonKaase » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:52 pm

go to nhraracer.com. then find blueprint specifications. pick out Ford, 1968. it tells the head casting numbers that are ok.

I found, for 1968, 289": C80E-L, M,

1968, 302": C80E-J,K C70E-C C80E-F

The block is more flexible, the year isn't as important, but it has to be exactly the same. Like 2 piece seal, pan bolts,etc.

Hope this helps, Kaase

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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Mummert » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:14 pm

Thanks Jon,

The only Std block I have is a D10E. Should be fine. I put it on the application along with the C5ae heads. There is the 1M crank out of that old 260 :lol:.
I have a line on an older block that I will get some news on in a couple of days.

It looks like a 65' 289 with a replacement block will be the most doable.
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Adger Smith » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:08 pm

289 heads on a 302 cu in engine are a cross breeding of engine combinations.
What Jon said is the way combinations will be approved.
There never was a 302 cu in engine built by Ford with C5A heads as per NHRA Blueprint specs. ( at least I couldn't find one in the specs)
You are allowed to use the later or earlier model blocks IE: sub a 302 for a 289
But you must use a 289 stroke in the 302 block. This is because you have selected 289 heads.
The 302 block has to duplicate the 289 block.
Installing sleeves to down size bores is legal.
No late model 1 piece seal 302's are allowed as replacements for the 289 block.
The data I have from NHRA specs shows the Head you have listed as a 1965 289.
You would call your entry a 1965 289.
The crank casting number does not matter as long as the stroke matches the 289 stroke + or - .015.
See, not so bad to do...
BTY the rule on Camshaft says : Any solid lifter cam.
Since there is a lift rule I want solid lifters in the engines so I can check the lift easily.
I don't care if they are mushroom, flat tappet or roller, just as long as they are solid.
DO NOT come with a Hyd. If I have to check your lift and find it is hyd your out...
The method I will use to check lift is "0" lash the rocker and check the lift at the valve spring.
I don't care what the rocker ratio is, I don't care what the cam specs are.
.600 lift at "0' lash with the spring you run on the engine at the event.
I will flip a coin to select which one I check. Intake or Ex.. If there is time I might check both.
I hope this clears up some of the questions/confusion.....
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Mummert » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:06 pm

Adger Smith wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:08 pm
289 heads on a 302 cu in engine are a cross breeding of engine combinations.
What Jon said is the way combinations will be approved.
There never was a 302 cu in engine built by Ford with C5A heads as per NHRA Blueprint specs. ( at least I couldn't find one in the specs)
You are allowed to use the later or earlier model blocks IE: sub a 302 for a 289
But you must use a 289 stroke in the 302 block. This is because you have selected 289 heads.
The 302 block has to duplicate the 289 block.
Installing sleeves to down size bores is legal.
No late model 1 piece seal 302's are allowed as replacements for the 289 block.
The data I have from NHRA specs shows the Head you have listed as a 1965 289.
You would call your entry a 1965 289.
The crank casting number does not matter as long as the stroke matches the 289 stroke + or - .015.
See, not so bad to do...
BTY the rule on Camshaft says : Any solid lifter cam.
Since there is a lift rule I want solid lifters in the engines so I can check the lift easily.
I don't care if they are mushroom, flat tappet or roller, just as long as they are solid.
DO NOT come with a Hyd. If I have to check your lift and find it is hyd your out...
The method I will use to check lift is "0" lash the rocker and check the lift at the valve spring.
I don't care what the rocker ratio is, I don't care what the cam specs are.
.600 lift at "0' lash with the spring you run on the engine at the event.
I will flip a coin to select which one I check. Intake or Ex.. If there is time I might check both.
I hope this clears up some of the questions/confusion.....
Thanks for the clearing it up, Heads, must be correct for displacement. The rules said something about the heads having to be from the same family of engine so I thought it was good.
A 65' 289 is what we'll shoot for. Cam thing makes sense after the pm. Any Rocker Ratio is good to go, as long as it has OEM style mounting.
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by JonKaase » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:30 pm

Adger, can we use my own dial indicator to check my cam lift?

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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Adger Smith » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:21 pm

The one that skips a tooth or two?
Or the one of Wesley's that I knocked off onto the floor.??
LOL!
Thanks for adding that about the NHRA Racer site.
Jon, do I need to bring mine that reads in Tenths for your build?
Last edited by Adger Smith on Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Adger Smith » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:25 pm

Quote" Any Rocker Ratio is good to go, as long as it has OEM style mounting."
It can be a Jesel or T&D or any rocker setup approved for NHRA stock eliminator.
No excessive machine work to adapt or install.
Tell us what you plan to use on the application and we will help take care of any issues before the event.
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Adger Smith » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:37 pm

Thanks guys,
I can take 1 maybe 2 Old iron applications
For sure I would like to have 2 more LS
If your interested send them in ASAP
E-mail me when you send them in to Hot Rod and I will stay on top of them. (don't send to me)
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Re: Engine Masters 2019

Post by Adger Smith » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:47 pm

J Robb,
I will be glad to help anyone with the NHRA combinations.
I know it can be a daunting process picking the right engine/parts from their guide.
There are some guys on this site that have a real good handle on what makes a good combination.
I don't want to see anyone get there and not be able to participate.
Just ask and Lonnie, RJ and I will be glad to give you an answer.
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