A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by MichaelThompson » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:28 am

Walter R. Malik wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:39 pm
JonKaase wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:23 am
I talked to Dulsich, The rules have a few misprints, mostly in Muscle Car. Steel roller cams OK. Smaller than 11/32 valve stems ok. All run at 3500-7000, both big block and small. Gen 3 Hemi and LS need one distributor and one coil. They just pasted the changes and missed the other stuff. Vintage is back to aftermarket heads, aluminum ok. Kaase
Time for that 371 Olds, Jon.
Being a “Ford guy” I have been amazed and thoroughly enjoyed the three straight wins by a Ford based engine in the Vintage class.

To make it even better these wins were achieved by engines that most of the hot rod world considers to be boat anchors. This is very much the same phenomenon as the wins the 400M based engines achieved.

With a few exceptions Ford engines get little respect, especially the Y-blocks and MELs.

Mr. Kaase there are a ton of like minded guys out here pulling for you as you destroy the misinformation about Ford stuff and show us the potential they have.

I particularly like these engine competitions because it eliminates the track, the chassis and the driveline excuses. This really shows what is available at the flywheel. You sir along with a few other brilliant guys have done more to put Ford engines in the proper light than anything else I can think of in a long long time.

One of the things that particularly sticks in my craw is how the Gm and Chrysler engines of the 1950’s pretty much owned hot rodding and found their way into far too many Ford engine bays.

Ford got caught behind with Henry’s decline and eventual death. Then in disarray after WWII they bet the farm on restructuring and new Fords, Mercury and Lincolns for 1949. They did not have enough resources to simultaneously introduce their own OHV V8’s. That had to wait till 1952 for Lincoln.

In a large way Ford vehicles got bastardized by the hot rodders with Olds Caddy and Chevs as a result of going “all in” to help us win WWII. That’s the thanks you get sometimes.

As I said it has been great to see you and Ted Eaton get a little vindication for those injustices.

Mr. Kaase I am one Ford guy that is hoping you choose another Ford engine for your Vintage class entry, but I totally understand the potential of the Olds with an aluminum head.

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by RAMM » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:39 am

JonKaase wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:01 pm
The EMC lost 6 to 8 good teams to the Race Engine Challenge. I hope there are entries to fill it up. It seems like a late start but a few years were into May before we had final rules, etc. The TEN network guys are trying to get the money way up for winning and hopefully better magazine coverage.
I've never understood why the EMC wasn't "televised" , especially considering the phenomenon of Roadkill and such. Why the heck wouldn't they strap a go-pro to the dyno carts and have a small army of people with them capturing everything and producing a content rich video? Seems like a real good opportunity wasted to me. J.Rob
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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:26 pm

RAMM wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:39 am
JonKaase wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:01 pm
The EMC lost 6 to 8 good teams to the Race Engine Challenge. I hope there are entries to fill it up. It seems like a late start but a few years were into May before we had final rules, etc. The TEN network guys are trying to get the money way up for winning and hopefully better magazine coverage.
I've never understood why the EMC wasn't "televised" , especially considering the phenomenon of Roadkill and such. Why the heck wouldn't they strap a go-pro to the dyno carts and have a small army of people with them capturing everything and producing a content rich video? Seems like a real good opportunity wasted to me. J.Rob
I have an opinion on that and it is simply because the people in charge didn't understand, (or just failed to even think about it), how many enthusiasts in the world followed this competition.

To those running the competition, other venues were worthy of more exposure and this contest was not.
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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by PackardV8 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:02 pm

JonKaase wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:23 am
Vintage is back to aftermarket heads, aluminum ok. Kaase
No surprise, the guys who have developed and sell aftermarket heads available want to be able to use them and thus sell more of them. Those of us for which there is no aluminum would prefer the previous OEM castings requirement.
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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by MichaelThompson » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:19 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:02 pm
JonKaase wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:23 am
Vintage is back to aftermarket heads, aluminum ok. Kaase
No surprise, the guys who have developed and sell aftermarket heads available want to be able to use them and thus sell more of them. Those of us for which there is no aluminum would prefer the previous OEM castings requirement.
Jack on another forum I mentioned the same thing. I wish at least for a year or two they would restrict the Vintage class to factory original castings for the decade of the 50’s.

As a casual fan of this competition and observing from the sidelines I would like to see just how badass the various first generation OHV’s were compared to each other.

I know nothing about Packard or Studebaker or many other early engines but it would be absolutely fascinating to see them run out on the “pump”.

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by PackardV8 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:38 pm

MichaelThompson wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:19 pm
PackardV8 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:02 pm
JonKaase wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:23 am
Vintage is back to aftermarket heads, aluminum ok. Kaase
No surprise, the guys who have developed and sell aftermarket heads available want to be able to use them and thus sell more of them. Those of us for which there is no aluminum would prefer the previous OEM castings requirement.
Jack on another forum I mentioned the same thing. I wish at least for a year or two they would restrict the Vintage class to factory original castings for the decade of the 50’s.

As a casual fan of this competition and observing from the sidelines I would like to see just how badass the various first generation OHV’s were compared to each other.

I know nothing about Packard or Studebaker or many other early engines but it would be absolutely fascinating to see them run out on the “pump”.
I know of one Studebaker V8 entrant who mailed his check before he learned aluminum heads were to be allowed this year. I was considering entering a Packard V8, but the aftermarket head guys will have it their way.
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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by JonKaase » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:46 pm

We would have to bring the all iron Edsel back

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by MichaelThompson » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:08 pm

Jack what about those Packard V8’s? How is the rotating assembly for performance? I know that Packard was all about smooth power which leads me to believe they are pretty heavy down under.

Are the cylinder heads unique in any way or are they fairly conventional in their design? Will the ports support enough airflow to make big power?

I’ve heard they are 5” on center in the bore spacing. Is this a big bore engine or can it be made to be one?

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by MichaelThompson » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:22 pm

JonKaase wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:46 pm
We would have to bring the all iron Edsel back
I have a friend that had a 410” ‘58 Edsel converted to a manual trans floor shift back in the day. (late 50’s early 60’s)

Swore up and down the only thing that could outrun him were the fuel injected Corvettes.

I think that engine was called an “E475” referring to the torque figure the engine put out.

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by Walter R. Malik » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:53 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:38 pm
MichaelThompson wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:19 pm
PackardV8 wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:02 pm


No surprise, the guys who have developed and sell aftermarket heads available want to be able to use them and thus sell more of them. Those of us for which there is no aluminum would prefer the previous OEM castings requirement.
Jack on another forum I mentioned the same thing. I wish at least for a year or two they would restrict the Vintage class to factory original castings for the decade of the 50’s.

As a casual fan of this competition and observing from the sidelines I would like to see just how badass the various first generation OHV’s were compared to each other.

I know nothing about Packard or Studebaker or many other early engines but it would be absolutely fascinating to see them run out on the “pump”.
I know of one Studebaker V8 entrant who mailed his check before he learned aluminum heads were to be allowed this year. I was considering entering a Packard V8, but the aftermarket head guys will have it their way.
In my opinion ... allowing the use of aftermarket aluminum heads would be fine if they would also limit them to original O.E.M. port location at the flange and O.E.M. Valve location.
A bunch could still be done with the porting but, not the great advantage they have now.
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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by GARY C » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:07 pm

RAMM wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:39 am
JonKaase wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:01 pm
The EMC lost 6 to 8 good teams to the Race Engine Challenge. I hope there are entries to fill it up. It seems like a late start but a few years were into May before we had final rules, etc. The TEN network guys are trying to get the money way up for winning and hopefully better magazine coverage.
I've never understood why the EMC wasn't "televised" , especially considering the phenomenon of Roadkill and such. Why the heck wouldn't they strap a go-pro to the dyno carts and have a small army of people with them capturing everything and producing a content rich video? Seems like a real good opportunity wasted to me. J.Rob
With the online platform they have moved to it wouldn't surprise me to see more video coverage then written coverage of this years event.
Please Note!
THE ABOVE POST IN NO WAY REFLECTS THE VIEWS OF SPEED TALK OR IT'S MEMBER AND SHOULD BE VIEWED AS ENTERTAINMENT ONLY...Thanks, The Management!

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by TexBlackwell » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:38 pm

JonKaase wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:00 pm
Thanks for posting Keith. It looks like Greg has a good show with some really talented people. I didn't want to do his event because I would have to had bought everything new and start over with some really expensive stuff. More or less An Australian Pro Stock 1200 Hp engine with the right lifter size. Bob Book is the one who should have done it.

I was content with the Engine Masters being not renewed and winning the last one. Now it's like WTF!!, it is on again? I couldn't believe it when someone sent me the news article where it has new life.

I talked with Steve Dulsich and I think he is the Tech guy. At least he is refining the rules. But not much. He said Lonnie is back and I hope CJ and Adger. Looks like they're getting the Band back together. I think Patrick Walsh is hunting up sponsors. I hope they can get enough entries. But there's quite a few like Royce and me that still have last years engine just sitting around! Kaase
Jon, you know better than to say "More or less an Australian Pro Stock 1200 HP engine...". The REC rules are very similar to the 2011 EMC Extreme
Street rules (which you were in) with lower compression and no tub oil pan.
The top three in that contest (402-432 cubic inch) were all very close in score and were all just over 2HP/cubic inch.
The REC rules look like a good balance between keeping cost down and allowing creativity - not some 10.5K RPM pro stock engine.

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by PackardV8 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:35 pm

MichaelThompson wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:08 pm
Jack what about those Packard V8’s? How is the rotating assembly for performance? I know that Packard was all about smooth power which leads me to believe they are pretty heavy down under.

The crank is 56#, about average for a big block. The rods are 6.78125", pretty long, but average weight. The pistons are tall compression height, 2.070", thus heavy. On strokers, I use 7.0" BBC rods and shorter pistons.

Are the cylinder heads unique in any way or are they fairly conventional in their design? Will the ports support enough airflow to make big power?

Very standard porting, 2.0" intake. Think Pontiac; good, but not great.

I’ve heard they are 5” on center in the bore spacing. Is this a big bore engine or can it be made to be one?

The 374" is 4.125" bore. I bore them .125" all the time and have gone .250" on street engines. I have a 440" welded stroker under construction at present.
Now, here's a question about the EMC logrhythm; given our iron heads have finite CFM capability, but, also the contest is limited to 6,500 RPM, would we choose a smaller displacement for higher HP/Cu In or larger displacement for highest horsepower/torque?

In setting up a Studebaker V8 build in DynoSim, given 200 CFM intake flow, all displacements made essentially the same horsepower. The 224" @ 8,500, 259" @ 7,500, 289" @ 6,500 and a 340" @ 5,500. Which would have the highest EMC score?
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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by gmrocket » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:16 pm

RAMM wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:39 am
JonKaase wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:01 pm
The EMC lost 6 to 8 good teams to the Race Engine Challenge. I hope there are entries to fill it up. It seems like a late start but a few years were into May before we had final rules, etc. The TEN network guys are trying to get the money way up for winning and hopefully better magazine coverage.
I've never understood why the EMC wasn't "televised" , especially considering the phenomenon of Roadkill and such. Why the heck wouldn't they strap a go-pro to the dyno carts and have a small army of people with them capturing everything and producing a content rich video? Seems like a real good opportunity wasted to me. J.Rob
In 2011 I brought my laptop with me and descided to live stream what was going on, minute
by minute updates when I had time,, I put pics up when I had time...even from the dyno cell control room...the feedback I got was fantastic!

And that was from only one board..many guys were watching and dying for up to date info.

In this day and age, there is no reason it cant be done,, on a budget. With a cell phone live from the event, talking to the competitors, live as it's happening...nothing complicated or anything like that...they are missing the ball.

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Re: A shock...2018 Engine Masters thread

Post by JonKaase » Mon Apr 02, 2018 5:19 pm

Tex, you are right. I missed the compression being 12 to 1. and only 7500 rpm, I was thinking 8000. doing the math, the absolute most power you could make at 7500 would be 2.39/inch. that's 1.68 ft/lbs per inch at 7500. 1.68 ft/lbs per inch is the highest NA torque per inch that I have ever seen. and with 12 to 1 you won't see that much. SO that would be 959HP max for a 400" and with the compression less and the lift rule and no dry sump or vacuum, it should be way less..... Kaase

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