A New Engine Contest

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exhaustgases
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by exhaustgases » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:10 pm

I mentioned some rules. Like size or CID, max hp out put, has to have pistons, and the type of fuel it is to run on, like gas or diesel , Oh and naturally aspirated only.
There does not need to be rules for anything else, like what kind of material a part is made of, what kind of ignition or how many spark plugs, or what the compression ratio is. And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world, all the average cars on the roads nowadays are either a 4 cylinder, or a 6 cylinder engine. There should be no limit on cylinders, just the swept volume. Gosh wouldn't it be nice to see some really out of the box ideas that some people might have? Anyone that is truly an engine aficionado should want this.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Rizzle » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:56 pm

exhaustgases wrote:I mentioned some rules. Like size or CID, max hp out put, has to have pistons, and the type of fuel it is to run on, like gas or diesel , Oh and naturally aspirated only.
There does not need to be rules for anything else, like what kind of material a part is made of, what kind of ignition or how many spark plugs, or what the compression ratio is. And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world, all the average cars on the roads nowadays are either a 4 cylinder, or a 6 cylinder engine. There should be no limit on cylinders, just the swept volume. Gosh wouldn't it be nice to see some really out of the box ideas that some people might have? Anyone that is truly an engine aficionado should want this.
V8's are on their way out? Besides Honda and Kia, all major brands currently produce a V8. Hyundai is joining them as well.
If its supposed to be a free for all, why must it be N/A, since most vehicles are going turbo from factory? Wouldn't it be really nice to have boost to play with? Engine guys love the sound of turbos spooling, dyno's straining to hold back the boost.

Again, why are your rules more open than what is currently offered? How do you have a engine competition with a max HP rating? Will it be a math competition to see who makes the most hp / cid, or hp/cid/valves? or Hp/cid/valves/throttle body? Should they be competing BMEP? I'm all for having a math based result, problem is I doubt many casual readers/viewers would appreciate it. (yes, I understand avg hp/ tq might seem complicated too).

If you want to see out of the box, you should check out previous EMC contenders. I can assure you, they are not all cookie cutter type builds, regardless of how you'd expect them to be based on the rules. The clever ones do so regardless of how restrictive the rules seem to the casual observer.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Kenova » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:11 pm

exhaustgases wrote: And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world...........
I've been hearing that since the mid '70s. Guess what!? V8s are still here.
Your point is taken though. It would be nice to see some 6 and 4 cyl. builds but I doubt they would generate much interest.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by exhaustgases » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:06 pm

Turbo's agreed, the max HP is to limit blowing up the dyno. I'm not saying get rid of the V8's just open it up. There are also V10's and V12's, and why does it have to be a car engine? And engine competition is for an Engine who cares about the application, especially if it is not "Engine Masters" that is for a hot rod magazine. Many of the shops out there not only work on automotive applications but also marine and industrial as well.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Monza Harry » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:58 am

Kenova wrote:
exhaustgases wrote: And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world...........
I've been hearing that since the mid '70s. Guess what!? V8s are still here.
Your point is taken though. It would be nice to see some 6 and 4 cyl. builds but I doubt they would generate much interest.

Ken
I am not so sure Ken, I am sure there is more interest in the 4 and 6 cyl. idea than you might first think. My Dad used to have and race a Midget race car, and I have long been an aficionado of sixes, especially inline. With room I think you would see the 250/292 Straight Chevys being watched, I would love to see an all out war with a gaggle of "Offy's", and Ken you own and drive a absolutely beautiful 4 cylinder [and your going it V8 it :( ] I know that it isn't fast but we both know what could be done to it. But the contest is ultimately about revenue generation, for the shops doing the work and the parts companies that make all of this possible, [their R&D and volume production make the present HP levels as affordable as it is], and not so lastly, the magazines that cover the contests, Cover headline "Engine Masters 400HP 2.0L four" sales Zero "600CI 800HP" flies off the shelf, So I would be watching, but doubtful I would be buying parts for the four or six cyl. version. There is still a movement in turbo 4's especially Ford 2.3's And while the V8 is still in the fight, overall they have been getting smaller, North star's biggest was 4.6L yet older straight sixes were common at 4.9 and 5.0L [Truck versions I know] My Sonoma is 4.3L 6cyl. European 8 and even 12 cylinders are often way smaller than North American versions down in the 3L and low, low 4L displacements. I will be buying the mag that covers the event and reading the sites that cover them either way. Harry Sorry if this doesn't exactly flow I think in high gear and type in double granny low!

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by gmrocket » Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:20 pm

to many experts here have no idea whats involved just to get a bunch domestic V8's on and off the dyno during an eight our period. its a thrash at the EMC , even with all the help of the crew at the school.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Gregory » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:43 pm

Here is an update on "A New Engine Contest". Over a month ago I asked the powers that be at the University of NW Ohio (UNOH) to consider holding another engine contest. As of yesterday they turned us down. We have several other possible locations on our list, but it will be hard to beat what UNOH has to offer.
As soon as we nail down a location it will be the start of a return to the days of a Real Engine Challenge.
Stay tuned.
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Walter R. Malik » Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:17 am

Gregory wrote:Here is an update on "A New Engine Contest". Over a month ago I asked the powers that be at the University of NW Ohio (UNOH) to consider holding another engine contest. As of yesterday they turned us down. We have several other possible locations on our list, but it will be hard to beat what UNOH has to offer.
As soon as we nail down a location it will be the start of a return to the days of a Real Engine Challenge.
Stay tuned.
Greg Finnican
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704 408-7356
That EMC engine contest does upset their school for an entire week so, they probably don't want for that to happen TWICE.
I believe there is an automotive college with dynos in Indiana somewhere or is it Illinois; I forget which.

EDIT: I just looked-up the one I was thinking of and it is "Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology" in Terre Haute, Indiana.
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by exhaustgases » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:08 pm

And why does it have to be an automotive college? There are a lot of small shops in various states that have dyno's.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Walter R. Malik » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:14 am

exhaustgases wrote:And why does it have to be an automotive college? There are a lot of small shops in various states that have dyno's.
An automotive type school has a built-in work force which is certainly welcomed to accomplish the fast multiple engine turnover on the dyno(s).
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Fordracer347 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:25 pm

exhaustgases wrote:And why does it have to be an automotive college? There are a lot of small shops in various states that have dyno's.
You're right, there are maybe thousands of small shops that have a dyno, I'm one of them.

The problem is logistics. We're talking about somewhere between 10-30 engines total over a few classes. If you're talking about one single dyno that's a reaqlly big hustle to get 3 engines on a day so you're looking about almost 10 days of competition and a crazy fast pace!

The other problem is repeatability, with my dyno and that much usage its hard to maintain a consistent water temp for the brake.

To do this and do it well, you need a really well funded facility with at least two dynos preferably three or four.
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by gmrocket » Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:52 am

Fordracer347 wrote:
exhaustgases wrote:And why does it have to be an automotive college? There are a lot of small shops in various states that have dyno's.
You're right, there are maybe thousands of small shops that have a dyno, I'm one of them.

The problem is logistics. We're talking about somewhere between 10-30 engines total over a few classes. If you're talking about one single dyno that's a reaqlly big hustle to get 3 engines on a day so you're looking about almost 10 days of competition and a crazy fast pace!

The other problem is repeatability, with my dyno and that much usage its hard to maintain a consistent water temp for the brake.

To do this and do it well, you need a really well funded facility with at least two dynos preferably three or four.
yup, and the shop would need a fair number of engine carts that can be ready to go with loaded engines..if an engine fails to start, or breaks soon into the session,,you need to be ready to switch it out with another cart right away or go to the other dyno which should be ready to run.

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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by Walter R. Malik » Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:33 am

The first couple Engine Masters Contests had REGIONALs and FINALs taking one week each; two times.
Each region had about 12 to 16 engines at 3 different locations with one dyno and the top 4 or 5 engines from those locations met for a FINALS at another location.

That seemed to be a giant hassle, especially with shipping, and two weeks, non consecutive, was a real hardship for contestants so, they went to a singular location with 3 dyno's needing only 1 week for the entire contest.
That worked for a while but, then that facility was paying and supplying the work force to get it all done and that became unacceptable.
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by SMITHBERGRACING » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:38 pm

Rizzle wrote:
exhaustgases wrote:So in other words no one really cares to see something different, nothing new, no new and great ideas. In the very old days racing was supposed to improve the automobile because of the new ideas that were thought up, just like Smokey and all his inventiveness. Okay keep rules and regulations, but still there could be one category that opens it up for the person that wants to attempt something different. The only rules should be Reciprocating, some sort of fuel burning or usage, physical size, and max hp, and holding it for 5 minutes or more, Max hp so you don't end up with someone trashing the dyno with a top A fuel engine, this would be the big attraction at any "True" engine masters type competition.
So you just want your type of rules package, eh?

Everything has rules. Inventiveness isn't just playing without rules, its playing within them. Earlier EMC entries have had some out of the box ideas (most of Mr. Kaase's I believe, though the EMC hemi 4 TB / IR intake is well up there) that would never have come out without a rules package limiting those areas in another manner.
Smokey's ideas came about because rules promote creativeness to beat those rules.
F1 energy recovery tech is at the forefront of ideal recovery paths when considering weight. The Turbulent jet ignition in F1 is a racing showcase of creative thinking, applied within rules.

I wish the competition supported the contestants better. It always seemed like they got the short end of the stick, for the effort, time, and money they put in.
Boy did we have fun doing it too! :D
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Re: A New Engine Contest

Post by SMITHBERGRACING » Sun Jun 26, 2016 12:39 pm

Greg, I believe you called me at one point but I missed your call.

One question.....how do you plan to get contestants exposure doing this?

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