A New Engine Contest

[Keith Morganstein]

Hot Rod let me in - some famous rich guy decided to only enter one engine and made a place for the downtrodden, maligned tractor engine guy...

I might enter in two contests if they have classes I can compete in - like Street Slow, and Street Poke

I never knew FE stood for Farm Equipment................. it all makes sense to me now!

A Ford 8n with a 428 cobra jet really makes some hay!

[gmrocket]

1135 views in just 16 days...i would say there is plenty of interest.

maybe just keep it simple the first year to get a good start?

[Kenova]

Keep it simple every year!
As a spectator there are only two things I am looking for.
1) Something that I could reasonably afford to build or have built.
2) Innovation.
Granted, the two objectives don't exactly go hand in hand.

Ken

[gmrocket]

i know if you have a good live streaming of the event,,thats a big plus. the EMC fails at that. i know it was suppose to be on facebook, i tried to follow there and it didnt seem to work very well...hours went by without any updates

ill even lend you my 10 year old laptop and remote cam...with a long cord. just go on skype...its such a simple thing to do.

[hoffman900]

Keep it simple every year!
As a spectator there are only two things I am looking for.
1) Something that I could reasonably afford to build or have built.
2) Innovation.
Granted, the two objectives don't exactly go hand in hand.

Ken

Item #1 is hard as I think HRM is doing more of that. PHR's was a lot more of #2 which as you pointed out doesn't jive with #1.

I'd much rather see innovation and I love the ship on the bottle format of a vintage style class (old style block / start with any production head, and do whatever you want with the engine from there).

[Walter R. Malik]

Locations need to be close for competitors that have a job, and can't be away from home for days on end.
There needs to be an "Inventive class" and the only things that need regulation are CID, and how it is aspirated. No what its made out of rules, or compression ratio rules etc. etc.
.

People usually have some kind of vacation time from their job ... it is simply their priority as to when it gets taken.

Compression rules became necessary in the EMC to protect engine builders from themselves as almost half the engines not making all the necessary runs due to detonation destruction does not make for a very interesting contest.

[Walter R. Malik]

Some of us just can't do the traveling thing too many things that prevent it. If high Cr trashes some ones entry then so be it, that is like having a crash in a car race it happens and is part of competition. If its not a competition of inventiveness then your back to the normal Magazine mess that already exists, and stupid restrictive rules make it boring.

A centralized location is best and the "mess" exists simply because only about 50 people get all the updates for the present contest, those rules are NOT presented in a timely manner and those people building and supplying the engines, (the actual talent here), are treated as the lowest on the totem pole. A few "level playing field" rules never deterred from the popularity of that contest. Being able to present "regular people" as contestants as well as professional engine builders together IS a good thing.

If someone is not one of those 50 people and nothing new is ever presented to the public in the monthly magazine along with no internet or website updates at all from the actual contest organizers ... you get a giant mess where almost nobody is happy. That contest never used to be run this way and it is a shame ... really a shame.

[manyponies]

^^^^^^^^ What he said.

Not here to bash the EMC in any way as I have enjoyed the Competition over the years. It is frustrating however, to spend money, resources, vacation time, ect. on the competition ( because we are passionate about it), and have it seem so unimportant to the Magazine. Years ago the Magazine put forth rules and dates that were enforced, as a competitor you knew where you stood.

[Rizzle]

Locations need to be close for competitors that have a job, and can't be away from home for days on end.
There needs to be an "Inventive class" and the only things that need regulation are CID, and how it is aspirated. No what its made out of rules, or compression ratio rules etc. etc.
.

People usually have some kind of vacation time from their job ... it is simply their priority as to when it gets taken.

Compression rules became necessary in the EMC to protect engine builders from themselves as almost half the engines not making all the necessary runs due to detonation destruction does not make for a very interesting contest.

While limiting compression to a set # would limit some of the self-destruction, what about adding a portion to the competition where the final engines need to hold peak tq for a min or so - after the score pull - to validate? Knowing you'd need to complete that (hopefully in one piece) to win, should keep compression from getting too out of hand, while still allowing design freedom.

[Walter R. Malik]

While limiting compression to a set # would limit some of the self-destruction, what about adding a portion to the competition where the final engines need to hold peak tq for a min or so - after the score pull - to validate? Knowing you'd need to complete that (hopefully in one piece) to win, should keep compression from getting too out of hand, while still allowing design freedom.

I would make a bet on that ... contestants would still push the issue and a lot of breakage and "burn downs" would result because just the CHANCE that it may succeed is enticing enough for them to go there.
It becomes a "how much detonation can your engine withstand" contest; almost guaranteed.

[Rizzle]

So in other words no one really cares to see something different, nothing new, no new and great ideas. In the very old days racing was supposed to improve the automobile because of the new ideas that were thought up, just like Smokey and all his inventiveness. Okay keep rules and regulations, but still there could be one category that opens it up for the person that wants to attempt something different. The only rules should be Reciprocating, some sort of fuel burning or usage, physical size, and max hp, and holding it for 5 minutes or more, Max hp so you don't end up with someone trashing the dyno with a top A fuel engine, this would be the big attraction at any "True" engine masters type competition.

So you just want your type of rules package, eh?

Everything has rules. Inventiveness isn't just playing without rules, its playing within them. Earlier EMC entries have had some out of the box ideas (most of Mr. Kaase's I believe, though the EMC hemi 4 TB / IR intake is well up there) that would never have come out without a rules package limiting those areas in another manner.
Smokey's ideas came about because rules promote creativeness to beat those rules.
F1 energy recovery tech is at the forefront of ideal recovery paths when considering weight. The Turbulent jet ignition in F1 is a racing showcase of creative thinking, applied within rules.

I wish the competition supported the contestants better. It always seemed like they got the short end of the stick, for the effort, time, and money they put in.

[manyponies]

So in other words no one really cares to see something different, nothing new, no new and great ideas. In the very old days racing was supposed to improve the automobile because of the new ideas that were thought up, just like Smokey and all his inventiveness. Okay keep rules and regulations, but still there could be one category that opens it up for the person that wants to attempt something different. The only rules should be Reciprocating, some sort of fuel burning or usage, physical size, and max hp, and holding it for 5 minutes or more, Max hp so you don't end up with someone trashing the dyno with a top A fuel engine, this would be the big attraction at any "True" engine masters type competition.

So you just want your type of rules package, eh?

Everything has rules. Inventiveness isn't just playing without rules, its playing within them. Earlier EMC entries have had some out of the box ideas (most of Mr. Kaase's I believe, though the EMC hemi 4 TB / IR intake is well up there) that would never have come out without a rules package limiting those areas in another manner.
Smokey's ideas came about because rules promote creativeness to beat those rules.
F1 energy recovery tech is at the forefront of ideal recovery paths when considering weight. The Turbulent jet ignition in F1 is a racing showcase of creative thinking, applied within rules.

I wish the competition supported the contestants better. It always seemed like they got the short end of the stick, for the effort, time, and money they put in.

Well Said

[Rizzle]

I mentioned some rules. Like size or CID, max hp out put, has to have pistons, and the type of fuel it is to run on, like gas or diesel , Oh and naturally aspirated only.
There does not need to be rules for anything else, like what kind of material a part is made of, what kind of ignition or how many spark plugs, or what the compression ratio is. And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world, all the average cars on the roads nowadays are either a 4 cylinder, or a 6 cylinder engine. There should be no limit on cylinders, just the swept volume. Gosh wouldn't it be nice to see some really out of the box ideas that some people might have? Anyone that is truly an engine aficionado should want this.

V8's are on their way out? Besides Honda and Kia, all major brands currently produce a V8. Hyundai is joining them as well.
If its supposed to be a free for all, why must it be N/A, since most vehicles are going turbo from factory? Wouldn't it be really nice to have boost to play with? Engine guys love the sound of turbos spooling, dyno's straining to hold back the boost.

Again, why are your rules more open than what is currently offered? How do you have a engine competition with a max HP rating? Will it be a math competition to see who makes the most hp / cid, or hp/cid/valves? or Hp/cid/valves/throttle body? Should they be competing BMEP? I'm all for having a math based result, problem is I doubt many casual readers/viewers would appreciate it. (yes, I understand avg hp/ tq might seem complicated too).

If you want to see out of the box, you should check out previous EMC contenders. I can assure you, they are not all cookie cutter type builds, regardless of how you'd expect them to be based on the rules. The clever ones do so regardless of how restrictive the rules seem to the casual observer.

[Kenova]

And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world...........

I've been hearing that since the mid '70s. Guess what!? V8s are still here.
Your point is taken though. It would be nice to see some 6 and 4 cyl. builds but I doubt they would generate much interest.

Ken

[Monza Harry]

And not limit it to a V8, V8's are on the way out in the automotive world...........

I've been hearing that since the mid '70s. Guess what!? V8s are still here.
Your point is taken though. It would be nice to see some 6 and 4 cyl. builds but I doubt they would generate much interest.

Ken

I am not so sure Ken, I am sure there is more interest in the 4 and 6 cyl. idea than you might first think. My Dad used to have and race a Midget race car, and I have long been an aficionado of sixes, especially inline. With room I think you would see the 250/292 Straight Chevys being watched, I would love to see an all out war with a gaggle of "Offy's", and Ken you own and drive a absolutely beautiful 4 cylinder [and your going it V8 it ] I know that it isn't fast but we both know what could be done to it. But the contest is ultimately about revenue generation, for the shops doing the work and the parts companies that make all of this possible, [their R&D and volume production make the present HP levels as affordable as it is], and not so lastly, the magazines that cover the contests, Cover headline "Engine Masters 400HP 2.0L four" sales Zero "600CI 800HP" flies off the shelf, So I would be watching, but doubtful I would be buying parts for the four or six cyl. version. There is still a movement in turbo 4's especially Ford 2.3's And while the V8 is still in the fight, overall they have been getting smaller, North star's biggest was 4.6L yet older straight sixes were common at 4.9 and 5.0L [Truck versions I know] My Sonoma is 4.3L 6cyl. European 8 and even 12 cylinders are often way smaller than North American versions down in the 3L and low, low 4L displacements. I will be buying the mag that covers the event and reading the sites that cover them either way. Harry Sorry if this doesn't exactly flow I think in high gear and type in double granny low!